- 1 day
They have unlimited resources and can keep this floating longer than any of us can imagine.
- Jiral@lemmy.worldEnglish17 hours
No they can’t do it forever. Exponentially growing demands outrun everything eventually. The onl, way out of this are either controlled deflation of the bubble or a hard crash. The former is possible but unlikely.
- 17 hours
Property has been crashing since covid. They circular financing for as long as they can, which might be quite a while.
- 17 hours
Like the article says, their internal risk management models are telling them to get the risk off their books.
Taking on the debt in the first place is like agreeing to store a gallon of milk in a fridge for an undetermined amount of time. The milk is going to go bad, and when it does the jug (or bag) might explode forcing a cleanout of the fridge, throwing out other things in the fridge, and maybe replacing the fridge altogether if the milk leaked down into a lot of crevices. Everyone knows the milk will go bad, but the big banks will know how old the fridge is, what coolant it uses, how old the compressor is, how many times a day the fridge has been opened, the average time it stays open, the dairy the cow who produced the milk, and the name of the cow if they can get it. The milk is going bad quicker than expected, and they’re finding out they don’t want to be the ones to guess when the jug will explode, and they’re also finding out that nobody else wants to buy the jug.
Oracle pulling a “god did it” was probably a part of this, but nobody involved is going to give a real answer.
- 16 hours
Uh brother! (or sister on non binary sibling).
You just sell the entire fridge as a sub prime fridge and watch the number go up.
Jaysyn@lemmy.worldEnglish
16 hoursSoftbank doesn’t.
With the VC money faucet being cut off, there is no way OpenAI or Anthropic will be able to cover their debt repayments that start in 2027. The media is failing at basic math at this point.
- Smoogs@lemmy.worldEnglish16 hours
What’s fun is now you can stick it to a bank easily by taking out all your money and investing it yourself. Make money off your own money. Cuz they sure do when they have it. (Hence the wait time when withdrawing large amounts)
Lots of trade apps out there now. You only need banks for holding small transaction amounts for paying bill. Soon they won’t even be required for that.
- 18 hours
“Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.” - John Maynard Keynes
But fact of the matter is that the people who run the market are the ones that decide who wins and loses. And they never lose.
I Cast Fist@programming.devEnglish
16 hoursI suspect this might be worse due to the amount of money being thrown around. As much as I want the companies responsible for the stupid bubble to go bankrupt, there’s a lot of money from pension and investment funds, so that’s going to hurt a lot of people who had nothing to do with that.
- Rcklsabndn@sh.itjust.worksEnglish18 hours
Speaking as an ancient person that has survived 40+ years of a capitalist hellscape, Yes. The bubble always bursts.
It is a thing that bubbles do.
- BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.worksEnglish17 hours
I remember the wall coming down and Denmark winning the UEFA cup in '92…
I think the AI bubble is gonna be so much worse than dotcom or housing in 2008. To me this AI bullshit is the dotcom on steroids.
Jaysyn@lemmy.worldEnglish
16 hoursAnd we won’t even get infrastructure out of this. Just a bunch of half finished data centers & $500B in currently warehoused specialized GPUs that can’t easily be repurposed.
- ElChinchilla@lemmy.worldEnglish19 hours
Enron never happened. Let’s check on my Lehman Brothers position.
I Cast Fist@programming.devEnglish
16 hoursDude, I’m this close to trading my beenz for a million dollars!!!
- InputZero@lemmy.worldEnglish16 hours
One of the many lessons to take from Enron’s downfall. Downfalls like this always seem impossible until the downfall happens. Then it becomes obvious why the downfall was inevitable.
ripcord@lemmy.worldEnglish
1 dayI’ve been hearing that since LLMs started gaining popularity. Doesn’t seem any closer today than, say, 2 years ago. But someone always makes this comment.
I’ve also been expecting a general stock market crash for a decade+. Somehow still hasn’t happened.
- percent@infosec.pubEnglish1 day
Doesn’t seem any closer today than, say, 2 years ago.
Have you seen what small, open-weight models from Chinese labs are capable of doing on consumer-grade hardware? They’re much more advanced than any flagship LLM running on VERY expensive hardware, 2 years ago.
I have no idea how close we might (or might not) be to the bubble bursting, but surely it’s closer than 2 years ago.
- 1 day
It’s fairly clear that the big ai companies are trying to get some form of general artificial intelligence because that’s basically a pot of infinite money, if they find it the rest of the economy is fucked and they skyrocket in value if they don’t find it the rest of the economy is fucked from debit and they go belly up.
- Rcklsabndn@sh.itjust.worksEnglish18 hours
It sounds like a couple of billionaires are staking their fortunes on a dice roll because the world bores them and fuck everyone else. Right?
Edit: I meant a couple, two three billionaires.
- Tollana1234567@lemmy.todayEnglish23 hours
right now they are trying t get governments to buy into slop for AI surveillance purposes.
- Auli@lemmy.caEnglish17 hours
Because they don’t need us. As long as they trade amongst themselves the price goes up. We can all die for all they care.
- likebudda@reddthat.comEnglish2 days
My youtube algorthim is filled with AI-skeptics (Eli the Computer guy, Ed Zitron, Prof G Markets) so this has been the slowest car crash I’ve ever gotten to watch happen. If Donald had actually focused on inflation all of these debt-sensitive AI plays could’ve continued to whistle through the graveyard. The skeptics have called out coreweave as being potentially the first domino to topple and their 6 year debt is trading at 15% right now. Thanks to plummeting token costs, they need to double their token sales every 90 days.
Vandals_handle@lemmy.worldEnglish
18 hoursAI bubble is light speed car crash compared to the climate crisis.
- Godric@lemmy.worldEnglish17 hours
My youtube algorithm
Why are you deliberately living in a bubble that shows you what you want to hear? Like I have a cousin convinced for years that either the US or China is >6 months from total economic collapse, because that’s their algo is showing them reinforcing narratives they want to hear.
- redballooon@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Stop using YouTube. The algorithm is not good for your mental health, nor to learn anything of substance.
- partofthevoice@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
The algorithm is dog ass. YouTube is still full of plenty smart people with something to say, though. It’s a video sharing platform; that doesn’t inherently mean every content creator who uses it is also dog ass.
ripcord@lemmy.worldEnglish
1 dayI don’t use the algorithm
I would love it if people just did the bare basics and posted to multiple sites but they refuse to.
I mean, maybe they do with shorts + Tiktok or some of that shit
- Rcklsabndn@sh.itjust.worksEnglish18 hours
I wish the same things, but, post to YT -500k views-paycheck. Post to Obscure Streaming Service- Only fans see it/care.
I love Nebula, but I always make sure my favorite creators get clicks on both platforms, because I’m unsure of the pay model.
Please correct my ignorance.
- thermal_shock@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
I watch more perfect union and the good liars. They’re not good at pointing out major issues? They bring receipts.
- redballooon@lemmy.worldEnglish24 hours
I have never heard of these channels. But if they are on YouTube to generate money, then they must grow views, and thus they’re subject to the algorithm. And thus you are getting your information filtered through the algorithms preferences.
It’s not censorship, but it’s a constant force that pushes content creators into one direction, and if you’re somewhat informed I don’t need to line out what direction that is. It’s just another algorithm based anti social media.
- KeithD@lemmy.nzEnglish1 day
Ignore pretty much anything farming related from More Perfect Union - they tend to provide farm lobby propaganda without actually fact checking it. I’ve become much more sceptical of their other coverage based on how bad that segment of it seems to be.
- Denfa@lemmy.worldEnglish17 hours
Do you have insight on farming issues to provide an example? Whenever we near election dates in the US we know farm lobbies always push for bailouts that usually end up benefiting corporations instead of farmers. I’m sure there are issues that exist but it’s hard to sort through what’s legit and what’s a money grab. I thought MPU was doing a good job but 🤷🏻♀️
- danielfm123@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
It’s true, disable YouTube feed and only look at subscription.
You can do it at https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity
- Tollana1234567@lemmy.todayEnglish23 hours
i dont log in to youtube, but if i see a pattern i just refresh it by closing the browser.
- 1 day
I have to second that, yeah, YouTube’s Algo is insidious and drives my binge-watching, but I’ve been able to curate a subscription list of solid content creators.
- redballooon@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Each one of the content creators ais subject to the same forces that the algorithm creates. No matter where you start, the content plus the algorithm slowly pushes you as well as the content creators into one direction. It may be a weak force, but it’s always there. content creators who want to grow their views do not have the liberty to evade it.
The direction is always towards divisive positions and decreasingly evidence based arguments, generally anti institutional, anti science, anti journalistic media.
YouTube as a feed is poison for a healthy mindset.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
2 daysBanks are in the business of underwriting debt and reselling it to private investors.
We’ve been reading this “End is Near” shit since COVID. Put something more on the table.
- ElChinchilla@lemmy.worldEnglish19 hours
Bad tech rapidly became a central pillar to that buying/selling and everyone is realizing it may be worthless.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
17 hourseveryone is realizing it may be worthless
Idk who you think “everyone” is
- 19 hours
I’ve been reading, “the end is near,” since HIV/Aids, y2k, 9/11, the SARS outbreak, the anthrax scare, the swine flu/h1n1 and the several ebola outbreaks. Oh yeah all those wmd scares and the potential for a world War after 9/11.
The end is always fuckin’ near. If it’s all gonna end fuckin’ do it already!!! That’s what I think and it’s the waiting and the probabilities of the what-ifs that I can’t fucking take.
Seriously, if they wanted to end it all they could, they just make threats to control everything with fear because all governments are terrorist fucking babys that ironically, need to maintain a society.
- MyVeryRealName@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
Owning a debt from the AI industry is a fairly insane amount of risk
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
2 daysIs it? They’ve been outperforming every other debt class for five years running.
- gian @lemmy.grys.itEnglish16 hours
I would not be here on Lemmy but on a remote island to mind my own business
- Don_alForno@feddit.orgEnglish21 hours
Their yields going higher and higher is not “outperforming”, it’s the opposite. Higher yield = higher risk.
- AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
Do you think they can maintain that for another 5 years? Another 20? Is the product AI companies providing worth the valuations?
Are 5 AI companies providing more value than every other tech company in the last 50 years? Thats what the valuations are trying to say. Im still waiting on ChatGPT to cure cancer.
- BreakingBigfoot@lemmus.orgEnglish1 day
I don’t see it happening; Copilot was a failed proof of concept that crippled the Windows ecosystem and permanently tarnished Microslop’s reputation as the premier operating-system developer; the Linux community doesn’t openly embrace AI much at all, and gamers couldn’t care less about it… All the LLM services have been running at a consistent loss/debt, and CoreWeave is propped up by the only 2 companies that couldn’t even successfully launch a finished product. They need to cut their losses and pack it in; call it a day!
- 17 hours
TBF windows has been going steadily downhill since XP, but yeah, the copilot shit certainly made a whole lot of people start looking for the exit. I think a bunch of people had been getting increasingly sick of the windows experience for years but kept using it because it was just there, and they couldn’t be bothered to change. Actually, I was one of them. Copilot was just the final straw.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
1 dayDo you think they can maintain that for another 5 years? Another 20?
I think expecting NVIDIA to fail inside the next five years is a wild reach. You might expect Oracle to take haircut in the next five years, based on their atrocious debt load. But even then, the idea that they’ll miss a credit payment?
Twenty years out, these firms are an even safer bet. Long term demand for compute and hosting services is only going up. And they’re so heavily consolidated. Too Big To Fail in every sense of the word. Are you going to bet against JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs on the eve of the financial crisis, even? Twenty years later, how are they doing?
Are 5 AI companies providing more value than every other tech company in the last 50 years?
It’s not a question of value, it’s a question of earnings growth. Will these top 5 AI companies be seeing stratospheric earnings growth in the next ten years? All signs point to “Yes”. The race to cement these data center footprints is a scramble for limited resources. The Capex budgets won’t be inflated to this degree forever.
Dismissing them for their rapid expansion would be like betting against New York and Chicago real estate markets because you didn’t trust skyscrapers to be profitable in another 20 years. Or betting against U.S. Steel and Standard Oil at the apex of WW2, because the resource demand from the conflict can’t go on forever.
- AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
I’m not saying they will fail I’m saying they will not maintain their rate of growth. Very, very different things but i guess you can pretend i said something else and argue against that or whatever idk dude lol
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
1 dayI’m not saying they will fail I’m saying they will not maintain their rate of growth.
They’ll hit a saturation point eventually, sure. But demand for capacity continues to outstrip supply.
- gian @lemmy.grys.itEnglish20 hours
If you will hit a saturation point, at some point the demand will stop outstripping the supply. Once you cannot exapand, the supply will catch up simply because the demand decreases, not considering that the supply could simply increase.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
1 dayIf you bought into Microsoft in '01 and have owned a REIT since '07, you’ve made oodles of money.
- Jiral@lemmy.worldEnglish17 hours
Yes, if you invested in the right company you made a lot of money, if you invested in the wrong company, you lose all your money. The onvestment was high risk back then it is high risk now.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
17 hoursYes, if you invested in the right company you made a lot of money, if you invested in the wrong company, you lose all your money.
That’s how investing works.
The onvestment was high risk back then
I would be curious to see how you try and calculate EV on a stock.
- rumba@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
I’d argue that Microsoft really didn’t do anything .com-ish. Amazon would have been a better choice for your argument.
And noone’s arguing that no companies flourished during those years. Just that a fuckton of them drug the market back to hell with their overpriced evaluations. (people laying fiber and buying 1.2M sock puppet ads in the super bowl)
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.worldEnglish
1 dayI’d argue that Microsoft really didn’t do anything .com-ish.
They’ve been the pack leader in the tech sector for decades.
And noone’s arguing that no companies flourished during those years.
The MAG7 have been outperforming the rest of the market since COVID, often by 5+%
This is very different than betting on some small cap IPOs
- rumba@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
They’ve been the pack leader in the tech sector for decades.
So what did they do that was crazy long bad bet .com? Them existing in the .com days leaves nothing to the discussion at hand.
Amazon was at least standing up storefronts and cloud at that point.
The MAG7 have been outperforming the rest of the market since COVID, often by 5+%
What does this have to do with Tech bubble vs AI bubble? Are you interested in being on topic or just arguing?
- 2 days
The part nobody prices in is the stranded-asset scenario. These underwritings assume a demand curve that keeps rising for a decade. If inference efficiency improves the way training efficiency did — and there’s real pressure in that direction now — a lot of this capacity gets repriced hard.
The bank behavior is the tell: debt that gets packaged and sold on right after underwriting is the classic ‘we have concerns but we’re not holding the bag’ move.
- SabinStargem@lemmy.todayEnglish2 days
I would say there are definite advances for inference. Custom backends built by AI for specific models, such as Strata, makes efficient leveraging of hardware much easier. Engrams, such as those in Qwen Next-Flash, allows for using more parameters via SSD, rather than memory alone.
These and other things over the past few years have allowed me to use bigger models, faster. Given another year of such progress, I think the value of subscribing to big American companies would start drying up.
- 17 hours
Sorry, ignorant question from someone who didn’t understand much of your comment - do you mean that AI models are writing code that improves them? Cos that would be interesting.
- SabinStargem@lemmy.todayEnglish16 hours
Not improvements to the AI themselves, but rather the software that runs them. Backends like Unsloth are typically generalists - they are compatible with all sorts of hardware, but in exchange, they don’t incorporate the latest improvements or ideas. Projects run by pure human implementation tend to require a lot of oversight to ensure that additions don’t break functionality.
AI is really good at collecting and aggregating information. This makes them ideal for creating tailor-made products that have a narrow focus, since they raid many Githubs and papers, then attempt to make them into a product. Strata is one such backend, which is specially designed for Qwen Next-Flash.
Strata runs much faster than Unsloth and other generalist backends, but lacks flexibility in what it is suited for.
At least, that is my admittedly basic understanding of the situation…
- DarkCloud@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Apparently they’ve spent 10 trillion in commitments that soan to 2032… And have to get AI earning to 3 trillion a year to avoid a crash.
…and there’s 8 billion people on earth. So I assume they’re hoping for some lucrative corporate/government contracts and bailouts.
- CheeseNoodle@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
GenZ Literally never having seen a functioning economy (at least while being old enough to meaningfully comprehend its existence) I imagine Generation Alpha is gonna have it even more fucked.
- ContactClosure@lemmus.orgEnglish2 days
I saw someone break down this bubble vs 08 and IIRC it’s something like 10x.
- 1 day
You’re actually correct. These mfs gonna make us all fucking starve. Fuck billionaires.
lorty@lemmy.mlEnglish
1 day2008 USA had the financial means to avoid the worst. This isn’t the case anymore.
- danc4498@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
Don’t worry, the people responsible in 2008 were held accountable. They also didn’t profit massively off the economic collapse. Frodo also got the ring to Mordor. He had some help, but the ring was ultimately destroyed.
- DickFiasco@sh.itjust.worksEnglish2 days
My favorite quote from The Big Short:
In the years that followed, hundreds of bankers and rating agency executives went to jail. The SEC was completely overhauled, and Congress had no choice but to break up the big banks and regulate the mortgage and derivatives industries.
Just kidding. Banks took the money the American people gave them, and they used it to pay themselves huge bonuses, and lobby the Congress to kill big reform. And then they blamed immigrants and poor people, and this time even teachers.
- bedwyr@piefed.caEnglish2 days
They blamed all the foreclosees loudly and publicly despite it being their own fault, while they got bailed out on our tax dollars. Insult to injury the rich blaming the foreclosees hardly even pay any taxes.
- madcaesar@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
Obama’s biggest failures are not going after these fuckers and the W war criminals
- kreskin@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
I thought his biggest failure was his raining hellfire on whistleblowers, kids protesting, and immigrants, but I’m willing to debate this. The real sting is that we had such high hopes and we got …that, instead, and then Biden after. I was so happy when Obama was elected the first time.
- jason@discuss.onlineEnglish2 days
2009 should have been the end of trying to “reach across the aisle.” 2010 should have been the end of the filibuster.
- bedwyr@piefed.caEnglish2 days
I never had high hopes, sadly I called it.
For the most part, as usual the democrats did even worse than I thought they would, but I also called that, but they did worse than even I knew they would do worse.
- 2 days
Dr. Burry! If the investors withdraw, what’s gonna happen here? Are we done?
Honestly, I don’t know! The… the… The bonds aren’t going down! They won’t move! It’s possible that we are in a completely fraudulent system.
Or… you’re, you’re wrong.
Sure! It’s possible, I just don’t know how!
edible_funk@lemmy.worldEnglish
1 dayOne brown man faced legal consequences for the 2008 crash. One brown man.
- 2 days
One part of that is just a story. As for the other part: I’m glad Frodo made it with help from his friends.
- bedwyr@piefed.caEnglish2 days
If by fun, you mean existentially bad and the death of the republic in all but name to be replaced ultimately with military rule that will become increasingly despotic while the country burns, then yes, I would agree.
- [object Object]@lemmy.caEnglish2 days
Probably related to the now three Oracle data center that can’t get electricity.
Wisconsin passed a law that fast tracking large projects requires a high credit rating or collateral, to pay secure costs for building the power plants needed for the data center. In July Oracle’s debt rating was downgraded to near junk levels.
That means Oracle can no longer get Wisconsin to supply power to the data center so it’s a $15 billion dollar paper weight. Thats putting even further downward pressure on their credit rating and ability to secure loans to meet their $500B in obligations.
Now Oracle’s New Mexico data center is stuck due to contract issues with water and gas turbines, so they can’t move foreward. Oracle has a 9% interest rate on the loans to build that, then they raise 2% after construction, because their credit rating is dogshit. So now Oracle is claiming force majeur to get out of their increased debt obligations, which you can imagine, is killing interest in lending to them.
In Texas they just blocked new grid hookups over political backlash to skyrocketing electricity prices. That killed another Oracle expansion they just canceled, and another one is trucking in gas for gas turbines as an alternative to the electrical grid, which you might imagine is expensive.
Which brings us to now. The banks are looking at local opposition blocking these projects (local action is working), states are blocking them to avoid getting voted out, hardware costs are shooting up, and the assets backing these loans are too small for so much investment.
So the level of risk no longer works.
—
My personal theory is that Oracle is a sacrificial lamb. It’s a dead end tech company that lives on licensing fees, and they’ve fucked themselves on these expansions. They’re failing at being a hyper-scaler as margins decrease.
I bet we see someone take Oracle private when their stock collapses, freeing the board of fiduciary duty to the stakeholders with a payout. This move is critical because it blocks other hyperscalers from putting in an offer to acquire their assets to shore up debt.
OpenAI will acquire the now private Oracle through a special funding round and buy up their hardware for pennies on the dollar. This will absolve them of the debt obligations Oracle has to OpenAI that have killed their credit ($500b), and stabilizes the Oracle balance sheet.
OpenAI will write this down and offer Oracle’s creditors equity stakes in lieu of cash, and will have acquired all their next gen hardware far cheaper than their competitors.
This might even fuck over Nvidia, the incestuous funders of the AI circlejerk. If Oracle gets to write off their GPU debts then Nvidia loses a fuck ton of sales, tanking their stock price — they take that OpenAI equity offer and look like they’re playing the game. OpenAI wants to build their own chips anyways, just look at jalapeño.
bitjunkie@lemmy.worldEnglish
2 daysOracle can no longer get Wisconsin to supply power to the data center so it’s a $15 billion dollar paper weight.
Fucking lol
- [object Object]@lemmy.caEnglish2 days
It’s even better because they signed contracts that guarantee that capacity to OpenAI, guarantee payments to their creditors, and Oracle is on the hook for it all with no outs.
Which is why I think it’s all a play, oracle famously is very lawyer heavy, they wouldn’t sign such stupid deals for no reason.
- chaogomu@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
they wouldn’t sign such stupid deals for no reason.
Greed. The reason was greed. They bought into the hype and thought they could print money.
And all the tech companies are doing it, Oracle was just the sick man of the bunch, and will be the first to fall, dragging the rest down with them.
All because they’re offloading trillions in debt to special purpose vehicles, the same thing that tanked Enron, the difference is that Enron, with $400 million in debt, was lying about it, and the current tech companies doing the exact same shit, are disclosing the debt legally, but still hiding it in the fine print of their disclosures.
The debt will still crash the economy, but at least it’s out in the open?
- kreskin@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
Also Larry is not nearly as sharp or thorough as he used to be, and he’s turned into a bit of a crumugeonly headstrong dick in his old age. No 82 year old is as sharp as they ised to be, despite how people like to lie about it. No 70 year old feels 40 anymore either. He has made numerous mistakes inside Oracle, and now he has run the whole company straight off a cliff, as aging boomers will tend to do.
- adarza@lemmy.caEnglish2 days
isn’t he also personally on-the-hook for debt used in recent ‘media ventures’, too?
- scytale@piefed.zipEnglish2 days
Getting AI FOMO and mortgaging your entire company’s future for it. smh
- chaogomu@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
And tanking the entire economy is the process.
Also, Larry Ellison (who can fuck right off) has leaned on his Oracle stock to fiance the buyout of all the media companies he’s gobbling up to build yet another right wing propaganda ecosystem.
- 2 days
a bit of leverage against the fed never hurt anyone
- 2 days
At least Wisconsin learned something from the Foxconn scam.
- eestileib@sh.itjust.worksEnglish1 day
Wisconsin has a preternatural ability not to learn things tho. They’re up there with Kansas and Florida.
- bedwyr@piefed.caEnglish2 days
The Foxconn deal was always a scam, I doubt they learned anything from it, other than to deny before the midterms and then cave to them after, which is I presume the plan.
Wisconsin is so heavily gerrymandered they have one of the worst state governments in the country, and they used to have one of the best.
Edit: Although maybe their supreme court ungerrymandered the state part, or was it the fed part? Either way, they are all crooks and will side with big money after the election you better believe they will try.
- tburkhol@slrpnk.netEnglish2 days
I don’t think it says anything about specific data center risks: capitalizing loans is standard operating procedure for these banks. It gets the loans off their account books, so they don’t have to hold capital to balance the risk, but they still get to collect management fees on the loans, regardless of whether they default. The big stories back in the 00s were residential real estate loans, but they do the same thing for commercial and industrial property.
- naught101@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
Isn’t fact they are having a hard time offloading that debt an indication that other investors are shying away from it because they see the data centre risk?
- humanspiral@lemmy.caEnglish2 days
Yes. The banks are there to just be an intermediary for this crap. The part where they unload at a loss was not part of their plan.
- [object Object]@lemmy.caEnglish2 days
I offer you an IOU. I’m on a good streak, and the IOU is that I’ll pay you back over time with interest.
You accept. You then find 9 other people offering IOUs of varying reliability.
You package up all the IOUs into an asset group. In theory we all pay you back regularly, but some of us will not. With 10 IOUs it’s unlikely we’ll all default, so the asset is safer and your risk models can assess this.
You still have the same amount of debt and risk on your hands.
You turn sell the rights to the payouts from the group, in exchange for cash now, because paying $X for payback of Y% interest over Z years with Q risk is an easy to reason about deal.
But your potential buyers squabble over Q, some don’t want to lose anything, some want to be risky.
So you split that risk level out into groups and say “if the overall goes down, this group pays first, then this group, then this group”, and you’ve created a securitized asset.
You’ve now sold off these assets to various groups, with defined risk levels, and you’ve made back money to offset what you paid out to the initial 10 IOUs.
Now imagine you took IOUs from crack addicts who are talking a lot about the power transformer behind the mall. They say they need money for tools and this will be the big one. You’re intrigued.
Odds are good this will pay off you think, those crackheads were excited and confident.
Later that day you hear sirens. Like, a lot of sirens. It’s coming from the mall area. Huh.
You still haven’t sold off all the slices of your asset, you were maybe hoping for more upside, and selling can take a while. But those sirens… they’re concerning.
Maybe it’d be a good idea to swap out your asset for another one, or offer those slices at a discount for some higher than expected risk. So you go out and start making phone calls hoping someone else isn’t worried about it. The only people who are less worried are a biker gang you normally wouldn’t do business with, but you figure for a discount they’re happy to deal with the crackheads.
(This was more about securities than recapitalizing, but kinda the idea)
- tburkhol@slrpnk.netEnglish2 days
My impression is that commercial loan securitization is a little different.
When you’re talking about residential mortgages, you’re talking about loans of a few hundred thousand, which is kind of too small for capital markets to bother. So the banks bundle them, like you say, and sell them in $1e8-1e10 offerings… Pension fund’s gotta park $100,000,000 somewhere, and that MBS is easier than actually managing 500 separate loans.
When you’re talking about commercial real estate - and especially things as big as data centers - it’s the opposite problem. They need such big loans that only a big bank or even consortium of big banks can get all the capital together, then the big bank turns the loan into a bond offering, so investors can buy them in slices as small as $1e4… That bond may only have one or two loans in it, so it can’t necessarily get broken into risk tranches like the MBS.
- Logi@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
With 10 IOUs it’s unlikely [they’ll] all default, so the asset is safer and your risk models can assess this.
This is where my spider senses go off. Are we assuming that these IOUs defaulting are independent events? Even though they’re from 10 crack heads talking about stealing the same generator?
- [object Object]@lemmy.caEnglish2 days
Yes, probability gets much messier with correlated events, and most models assume independence. You can vary intensity/hazard in counting processes, but really there’s not much you can do at a certain point.
- trolololol@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
Yeh and they all hang out with each other and bribe the same
policesenators and bulk buy theircrackdreams from the samedealer3 AI companies
- eodur@piefed.socialEnglish2 days
Any sufficiently advanced financial instrument is indistinguishable from fraud
No1@aussie.zoneEnglish
2 days- Own the politicians
- Get bailouts
- Avoid any legal or financial consequences
UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.mlEnglish
2 daysIs the bailout going to be because of national security or is it going to be a to big to fail situation.
- moustachio@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
If they get a bailout, are we ready to drag recipient ghouls through the streets?
- Bubbaonthebeach@lemmy.caEnglish2 days
It’s about time for the ultra-wealthy to create another 2007 so they can wrench the last bits of wealth off anyone who isn’t already a $100Ms-billionaire.
- Tollana1234567@lemmy.todayEnglish23 hours
they were mad because they dint get away with enough in 2008 and we still feeling the repercussions from that era.
- 2 days
That has been the plan since the oligarchs took off their masks.
- Echo Dot@feddit.ukEnglish2 days
The thing is the boat was very clearly going down when they got on.
Everyone knew it was a pyramid scheme from the start they just thought there were at the top of the pyramid and now they’re worried because it looks like they’re a little further down than that so they’re trying to minimize their losses.
- 2 days
the boat has cheese, and as long as you get off before it sinks too much you come out ahead.
bthest@lemmy.worldEnglish
2 daysSo how would a (by now inevitable) government bailout not trigger an untenable treasury yield?
- LazyOldPervert@lemmus.orgEnglish2 days
Quantitative easing.
The same shit that put us right here after the GFC
- 2 days
Print more money lol, although that’s sometimes referred to as a “soft default”
- humanspiral@lemmy.caEnglish2 days
It’s happening!!! Bubble pop is happening!!! article is underplaying it.
Coreweave debt pushed towards 16% yield today. The worst of the AI clusterfuck. Oracle, 2nd worse, move to 8% which is still absurdly low, but was holding 6% a week ago.
Main headline, yes the big banks are selling off debt to losertards. At a discount. Insurance companies are the losertards chasing yield, but have big losses today.
Nvidia, the circular financing backstop for the bubble, signaled today that it is just waiting for bankruptcies to swoop in instead of propping up the fraud. Bond/share holders will get crushed, and bubble dead, but still Nvidia will drive rampocalypse if the datacenters are still alllowed.
mojofrododojo@lemmy.worldEnglish
2 daysyep, adding in open AI’s oopsie accounting - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/oct/09/openai-forecast-revenue-gap
burst, baby, burst!
- Echo Dot@feddit.ukEnglish2 days
If they bubble can take down oracle on the way out I suppose it will have been worth the cost of entry.



























