Take a car with an internal combustion engine and replace everything that is needed for an electric car. Now you have a no-nonsense car.
Instead, we have a rolling data center that feels like a smartphone.
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Actually your recipe for an electric car is what US manufacturers tried to do because it didn’t require as much retooling. Turns out it is a pretty bad way to make an electric vehicle from scratch. The batteries are big and heavy and need their own space. The best place is in the bottom for weight distribution but instead they had to cram them in the existing engine compartment along with the motor. It’s just not as good as designing it to be electric from the ground up. Most of them were compromised and thus didn’t sell well.
Regarding the rolling data center, that’s actually a different problem that applies to pretty much all new cars. There is a growing backlash against all of these features (and lack of buttons). Unfortunately, it kind of falls on deaf ears. I think this is why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs. They take a more practical view of the vehicle. Although, I don’t actually know how much spying these Chinese vehicles do. It wouldn’t be like the Chinese to miss that opportunity.
There’s a startup that is making a totally bare bones car called Slate. I really don’t understand why every car has an ipad when I just need a place for my phone and it will accomplish the same thing (minus a back up camera which I find completely unnecessary).
- 3 days
In the US, backup cameras are mandated by law as a safety feature. It’s not an “add-on” or perk like some automakers try to imply.
Same with front end collision avoidance cameras/sensors. Those need to be in all cars manufactured for the US market by 2029.
- 3 days
Less spying is absolutely not why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs, it’s cheap labor and long term state backing. I have a bridge to sell to anyone who thinks Chinese EVs aren’t spying, hahaha
- 3 days
I’d rather have China spy on me than US corporations or state. I don’t live in China and have no fear that their surveillance will result in a fascist goon at my doorstep.
That’s where I’m at. What’s China realistically going to do with that data?? If I’m going to be spied on no matter what I’d rather have it be done by a country across the world and get a reasonably priced EV too.
- 3 days
I have actually converted an old diesel land rover to electric. NDA so I can’t disclose the company, but we replaced the transmission with an electric motor that had an adapter plate to the original transfer case. The engine was replaced with a large battery pack and some electric pumps, handfull of heat exchangers. As you said, converting is never as good. A big heavy pack where the motor was makes it more front heavy than with the diesel 4 cylinder, range was about 120 miles which is pretty piss poor compared to what it could do with the diesel powertrain. It was very cool in theory, but not a practical vehicle. Another company has done a different ev conversion on some of the LR’s and they used a Tesla drivetrain if I’m not mistaken, and had to split up the battery pack and spread it across 3 different locations in the vehicle. Purpose built evs are definatley the way for packaging, although repowering classics that only get tooled around here and there to get ice cream or go golfing on the weekend is a neat concept. The weight distribution of the components is just so different from an ice that it necessitates a ground up design. Electric motors are far lighter than ice engines, but they need FAR more weight in battery packs than a tank of fuel for comparable range so u cant exactly just replace the fuel tank with a battery pack and expect it to go far.
- 4 days
OP is drinking the oil industry Kool Aid. All cars come with the same sensors and send the same data home. It has nothing to do with the engine.
We should have laws against it, but it certainly isn’t limitteed to EVs.
- 3 days
All cars come with the same sensors and send the same data home. It has nothing to do with the engine.
You wish to elaborate on that bold claim a little? Because there’s a ton of sensors that are present in combustion engine but not in EVs and they have everything to do with the engine.
You must be invulnerable to arrows, with your ability to miss the point.
- 3 days
You completely missed the point. OP made a claim “EV cars have lots of gimmicks”, this comment is saying “so do non EV cars”.
- 3 days
this comment is saying “so do non EV cars”
It’s not though. Perhaps that is what they mean which is why I asked for clarification but it sure is not what they said.
The discussion isn’t about oxygen sensors or knock sensors. They’re talking about all the ‘smart’ features that send all kinds of information about you to the manufacturers. These systems are present in almost all modern cars.
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
GPS location data, speed, acceleration, braking, video, driver weight, passenger weight, radio preference, podcasts, music,…
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
All the location, video and entertainment data harvested on EVs is harvested on ICE.
4 daysI think that that’s kind of a problem with almost all new cars, not just EVs.
Slate’s a pretty stripped-down EV. It’s got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_(vehicle)
No cell radio. Doesn’t even have power windows in the base configuration; it comes with air conditioning and air bags and that’s about it.
Note that the range is shorter than, say, a Tesla Model 3 or something.
- 4 days
The range is shorter than a Tesla but the price is about a third so it’s not so bad when you factor that in. I wish Slate success I really like their approach to the automobile, they remind me of Framework computer on wheels.
- 3 days
Yeah I hope they succeed: we really need something like that.
I understand why they’re building a truck but I really wish they hadn’t. With that low range and the suv/fastback kits being extra cost, it’s not as compelling to me as it should be
- 3 days
I know a part of me wonders if a two seat with flat bed pickup was significantly cheaper than a four seat car with trunk.
- 3 days
I know what you mean but it’s hard to believe.
However it’s easier to believe
- A huge part of the us want a truck, even if they’d be better served by other vehicle types
- When the goal is being modular, you can turn a truck into an suv, but not vice versa
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
So real world 150, 100 in winter.
It would do better without the aero of a barn.
Give me AC, A heat pump, 300 miles of range. And two basic speakers. If it doesn’t make the 1998 beater i got when i was 19 look fully loaded it aint basic enough. I need to not die from the elements and for it to go from A to B while blasting low quality buttrock.
- stoy@lemmy.zipEnglish4 days
It’s got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.
I believe that is a mistake, carplay and android auto are designed to work well when driving, my phone automatically removes all text message notifications and makes me not even notice getting texted to prevent me from getting distracted.
I would like a stripped down car that still has Carplay/Android Auto.
You can install head units into older cars easily to do this. Did it with my old Ute. Android auto for a song.
This would be solved by putting space in the dash for people to install their own head units.
- RattlerSix@lemmy.worldEnglish3 days
There’s a huge space in the dash, it’s basically a large glove box. A radio or screen can be hidden behind the door or built into it, whatever you prefer.
Choice and DIY is a big part of Slate’s thing. I don’t need or want a screen and would not like a car with a big space for one. I’ll add it later if I change my mind.
The guy I’m replying to already explained why that is suboptimal for him.
- 3 days
I’m pretty sure you can choose to install an entertainment center if you wish to. But why should those of us who do not want have to pay?
- sem@piefed.blahaj.zoneEnglish4 days
Interesting. Android auto always makes me more distracted vs if the phone was just normal.
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
Let’s see what Slate actually sells, if they sell anything at all.
- 3 days
See I like this but man is it expensive. It fits every category I need, well except range.
It’s got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.
I’m not sure how that will be road legal in the USA because after the passage of a law in 2018 all vehicles under 10,000 lbs require a backup camera.
“Today’s final rule requires all vehicles under 10,000 pounds, including buses and trucks, manufactured on or after May 1, 2018, to come equipped with rear visibility technology that expands the field of view to enable the driver of a motor vehicle to detect areas behind the vehicle to reduce death and injury resulting from backover incidents. The field of view must include a 10-foot by 20-foot zone directly behind the vehicle. The system must also meet other requirements including image size, linger time, response time, durability, and deactivation.”
Gotcha, thank you for that. So they DO have a screen, but its normally in use for the speed/charge gauge cluster, etc. Good solution.
- obviouspornalt@fedinsfw.appEnglish3 days
they can put the backup camera display integrated into the rear view mirror, many models of cars had this before the built in tablet computer became ubiquitous.
This is stupid design. When I’m going backward it’s always better to have more view angles: rear mirror, side mirrors, backing camera, all of them have different view angle and their use. Blocking mirror with camera display is like losing an eye.
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
We’ll, I have a rear video in mirror and you’re completely wrong.
Why are there no normal
electriccars instead of gimicks on wheels? is probably the first question.your statement goes well outside just cars too. all house appliances to start.
I haven’t bought appliances in a while. I get the feeling the high end stuff has mandatory tech crap on it, but the low end stuff is still mercifully free of it; I feel like it would be easier to by a fridge that does not spy on you than a car.
- Lovable Sidekick@lemmy.worldEnglish3 days
Chinese companies are exporting basic EVs like you’re talking about that sell for like $15k. Sadly if you’re American you can’t buy one because Freedom!!!
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
They sell for $15k in China, but you can’t compare those prices. Canada and Australia have allowed Chinese EV imports, nothing is below $40K in Canada, Australia has the BYD Atto, at $20k, but it’s a cheaply built car, likely disposable.
Show me a single non-EV car for sale that doesn’t raise all the same objections
- 3 days
Mostly because they can. You really need to have everything automated anyway, you need at least a backup screen, so you might as well put it on that screen. It’s probably cheaper at that point to control everything by screen than to do install buttons
There’s still some hope
- 3 days
I have never bought a new car and never had any intention to because of how bad of an investment they are. If slate comes through with half the features they’ve announced, then I’ll be buying one after my 2013 Subaru Outback gives out. I play music and do lots of small rural work just outside of the city. A small truck for hauling would be perfect! I don’t want a Superlift Mega Child Crusher x4500 with double crew cab, a bed 7ft off the ground and only 34 inches long, but hey, at least it has 15,000 pounds of towing capacity for when I am hauling my drum set across town or need to take plywood to my mom’s house.
- 3 days
I’ve spent the last year teasing my older brother for buying a full sized truck, now that he no longer has a house or property. Joke is on me though, he just bought a huge camper to tow with it. I guess he does have use, at least a couple days of the year
- bitteroldcoot@piefed.socialEnglish4 days
There aren’t no nonsense gas powered cars anymore. Everything is computer controlled.
Anti lock brakes, collision avoidance, controlling the fuel injections. You have to go back to the models that used carburetors to get what you want. Then the federal goverment requires tons of expensive safety equipment and testing to keep new companies from entering the market.
But to answer the question, profits. The production line for low price gas cars are already built and optimized with statistical process control. There aren’t high profits in the low priced autos. They will only switch when nobody buys their current models.
Just look at the big three turning their nose up to electric.
Meanwhile Hyundai is rolling out a super cheap model in china. https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/hyundais-new-ioniq-v-undercuts-the-cheapest-ev-in-america-by-over-10000/
FYI: Companies are getting your message and vibe. But so far it’s just for farm tractors.
https://wheelfront.com/this-alberta-startup-sells-no-tech-tractors-for-half-price/
There aren’t no nonsense gas powered cars anymore. Everything is computer controlled.
Anti lock brakes, collision avoidance, controlling the fuel injections. You have to go back to the models that used carburetors to get what you want. Then the federal goverment requires tons of expensive safety equipment and testing.
I don’t think OP is referring to any of that. More so the infotainments systems, touch controlled dashboards etc.
Idk, just because a car doesn’t have a touchscreen doesn’t mean the computers aren’t tracking you. Anything with ADAS (advanced driver assistance systems) is going to phone home, and vehicles are required to have a lot of the systems now.
Some guys coffee maker was sending a terabyte of data back to the office, you think turning off the systems stops them from tracking you?
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
ABS has saved thousands of lives. Fuel injection has saved billions of dollars in gas.
- 3 days
The trick is to drive a 20 year old car. I’ve got zero interest in new cars - I wouldn’t want one even for free. Every time I have to drive one I get extremely frustrated by all the pointless features that I have no use for and are just acting as a distraction. Hell, I almost hit a cyclist once because the car wouldn’t let me cross the centre line.
The day my truck dies I’ll just buy another identical one and keep the old one as parts truck. It has everything I need and nothing I don’t… …except automatic wipers.
- 4 days
My issue is that a lot of manufacturers have tried, incorrectly, to mimic Tesla in ways they don’t understand.
Tesla have a 16" screen in their car.
Ford: We put a 17" screen in our car!
Tesla: You can watch movies, play video games, browse the internet, etc. when you’re charging (as it used to take a long time - but we’ve kept the big screen).
Ford: You’ve got a bit ole screen! It’s bigger than a Tesla’s! Your driving map is huuuge. When you’re charging you can watch it charge - in HD!
Buttons and dials are coming back, at least.
Not sure where I read it, but the story goes that loads of manufacturers used touch screen controls “because Tesla” but Tesla didn’t do it because it was cool and fancy, they did it because it’s cheaper. Spinning up entire supply lines to get plastic buttons and switches just wasn’t feasible for them in the startup days.
It’s literally the opposite of premium.
- 4 days
Not everywhere. BMW stupidly are nixing more controls in favor of touch bullshit.
And that stupid tablet in the middle design seems to only ever quicken its pace.
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
They always just take the ICR out, stick a generic EV powertrain in and basically call it a day.
Literally no one does that. Where does Lemmy get their engineering expertise from?
- halcyoncmdr@piefed.socialEnglish3 days
I can say coming from a Tasla in 2018 to Polestar, and then a bunch of various EV rentals while that was being “repaired” (and ultimately returned as a lemon)… To ending up with a Honda Prologue (actually a GM)…
None of the legacy automakers have any idea what to do with EVs, and they aren’t even trying to figure it out. They always just take the ICR out, stick a generic EV powertrain in and basically call it a day.
No attempt to take advantage of the fact they have power always available. Still keeping the engine Start/Stop button despite there being no reason for it. Requiring lock/unlock buttons on the exterior handles despite the car already knowing whether you’re in proximity via the fob, to let those buttons do anything in the first place.
And the complete lack of things like YouTube/Netflix, etc. when needing to charge at public chargers on long trips in more remote areas with limited infrastructure.
They could just copy Tesla and no one would complain, because the product would actually be good. As it is currently, all of the legacy US manufacturers fucking suck. The only ones that seem to have figured it out are the new players that haven’t had the same Boomers running the show for the last century.
- 3 days
This is my experience as well. I think it’s arrogance to a degree “we’ve been making cars for 140 years, we know how do it” - and then they fail miserably.
- 3 days
My family has a 2019 Nissan leaf and the infotainment center feels like it’s from 2012, so I wouldn’t say it feels like a smartphone.
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
Elon Musk started a grift in 2012 that EVs should be expensive. To try and add value to what is a less expensive car to produce, he added a plethora of gimmickry and US consumers love gadgetry. By 2022, battery prices plunged 90% and Teslas were the highest profit margin vehicles in the industry.
Detroit watched all this and decided to to the same thing, but Detroit had too many “luxury” models and after pandemic gouging, customers kept away. No one bought their EVs. Stellantis lost $80B in value and has 430,000 unsold cars sitting on lots right now, rotting.
This all pushed customers to Korean brands, as Detroit decided they had no interest in affordability. Boom times for Honda, Kia/Hyundai and Toyota.
I can’t believe I’m about to defend Elon Musk.
Prior to Tesla, the very few EVs that existed were dopey-looking and had no range. Tesla’s founders (not Elon) realized that lithium battery technology made an actually-good EV possible. They made the Roadster, which was expensive and impressively fast but barebones. Elon horned his way in and took the company on this strategy path: sell that expensive car to create and sell a more mass-market, slightly less expensive car. Then use the money from that car to make an even cheaper mass-market car. That was the Model S/X, and then the Model 3/Y, respectively. It wasn’t that this fancy shit was some sham to trick people, it was what a small barely-funded company had to do. It worked out pretty well until they lost the plot a few years ago.
Making a software-defined car does have its benefits too: adding functionality, detecting issues before you get stranded by a breakdown, an improved infotainment experience. You can argue about the merits of those, but realize that the whole industry does this now - for better or worse. But to say that Tesla tricked people into wasting their money on gee-whiz tech is a dishonest representation of EV history.
By 2022, battery prices plunged 90% and Teslas were the highest profit margin vehicles in the industry.
This plunge in battery prices happened specifically because of Tesla making EVs mass-market.
Legacy auto fumbling the EV transition is due entirely to their hubris and incompetence.
That being said, Elon Musk is a Nazi just like Henry Ford before him.
- 3 days
Then use the money from that car to make an even cheaper mass-market car. That was the Model S/X,
Just to nitpick, the gull-wing doors on the Model X were neither cheap nor practical. They were a really dumb expensive idea
- 3 days
At least in the silicon valley I think they got a jump from the “cool” factor over everything else that could use the HOV lane. A good friend of mine was working for a company and the SVP had I think a Bentley and a top of the line 911 but drove a Prius to work every day purely to use the HOV lane. That type of person was more than happy to buy a 6 figure S to ditch his Prius…
I think that’s part of the reason BYD does so well in Australia.
Their cars look like normal cars.
- sapetoku@sh.itjust.worksEnglish4 days
We’re about to get BYD cars in Canada, they’re half the price of anything else on the market. If they can resist our winters and evil road salt I’m totally game for one to replace my gas-guzzler.
- 4 days
Not really, unless you mean giant SUVs. Where are the regular cars and hatchbacks? I hate this constant bigger and bigger vehicles nonsense that just puts people at risk.
Do you mean by this that Canada isn’t getting a range of cars, just the larger 4WD utes and SUV style car?
- sapetoku@sh.itjust.worksEnglish4 days
Today’s larger cars are actually safer… but for their occupants only. In a sea of trucks and giant SUVs it’s a little scary so everyone wants a big car. Even small cars are big now, look at a Fiat 500!
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
Incorrect, large SUVs are legally trucks and have less crash protection. Larger vehicles also get into more crashes because of longer stopping distances, poor handling, tendency to flip, and sliding off roads easier in winter.
F150 and Silverado are the two most commonly crashed vehicles.
- 3 days
F150 and Silverado are the two most commonly crashed vehicles.
They’re also the most common vehicles on US roads.
- boletus@sh.itjust.worksEnglish4 days
Not necessarily true. Bigger car doesn’t necessarily mean a safer car. It’s complicated and SUVs have made car accidents more dangerous because they are heavier and are much more likely to flip compared to a car with a low centre of gravity. They also are far more dangerous AGAINST sedans and hatchbacks due to the mass difference
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/are-suvs-safer-than-smaller-cars/
Here’s an article that looks at some of the research.
SUVs do provide perceived safety because drivers are higher up and in a bigger car but that’s not valuable whatsover in an accident.
I don’t know about the rest of the world but in Australia SUVs were treated with less restrictive emissions standards as sedans or hatchbacks so car companies pushed them very hard, some fleets completely removing sedans and hatchbacks from their line up and replacing them with Compact SUVs.
I’m pretty certain most of the SUV craze is just very effective marketing.
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
Same is true in US and Canada, trucks are loopholed for safety to save production costs.
- 3 days
Small cars have all but disappeared from the market, even a Civic is HUGE compared to a Civic from 20 years ago… but it’s also a lot safer (check the crash tests between similar vehicles from the 1990s and contemporary ones).
I’m in Canada and for winter driving up north you definitely want a larger vehicle with decent ground clearance.
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish3 days
they’re half the price of anything else on the market
Incorrect. They are only importing the expensive models and no prices have even been announced.
The whole of China can only import 50,000 cars in a market of 2 million sales a year.
The price is part of it here, but it’s a lot more than that.
Home owners here strongly lean towards solar installations at home, backed by either a battery installed in the garage or an EV. Some renters take part in this as well, if they have solar. This prevents power loss during blackout plus save a fortune in fuel costs.
So the car is part of the entire home energy equation, plus cheap transport. This is important here for many because as you are probably aware there can be some distance to travel even in urban areas; it’s not uncommon for a commuter to drive 4 or so k to a train station then catch it into town for work, for one example. That person would be all over a BYD Atto for under 20k
- 3 days
Every single new car is a connected car. If your data is going to be collected, I’d rather have it collected by China than Palantir.
- 3 days
I’d rather neither collect my data, but in this case it’s worse than that.
Hreszczuk runs Fortify Labs in Canberra and specialises in car security. His job was simple: find out what BYD, or anyone with access to BYD’s systems in China, could see and do to the vehicle remotely. He didn’t expect it to be quick.
“It was easier than we were expecting.” Hreszczuk says.
That wasn’t just an offhand comment. Hreszczuk makes a living finding ways to break into cars, so the fact that he was surprised by how easy it was is significant. Even he didn’t expect to get access so quickly or find so little standing in his way.
The entry point had no password at all. There was nothing protecting it. That one weakness gave Hreszczuk a way into the software that controls many of the car’s functions. After spending two weeks exploring the system and testing what he could do, he was ready to show the results in a real-world demonstration.
“Sitting by the side of the country road, he demonstrates what can be done with remote access to a vehicle. First, he locks the doors while I’m inside, blasts music over the speakers and plays images on the BYD’s giant infotainment screen.” reads the report published by ABC News. “Then, as I drive, he remotely switches the wipers on at top speed, sprays the windscreen with water and turns the lights on and off.”While Four Corners reporter Angus Grigg was driving the BYD at about 30 km/h along a straight country road, Hreszczuk controlled parts of the vehicle from his laptop. He locked the doors remotely, turned up the music through the speakers and displayed random images on the infotainment screen. He then switched the windscreen wipers to their highest setting, sprayed the windscreen and repeatedly turned the headlights on and off. At the same time, a recorded voice played through the speakers, warning the driver to use low beam.
Then things became more serious. Hreszczuk switched the headlights off completely while Grigg was still driving the car in the dark.
He was not able to control everything. The brakes and cameras were protected by stronger security measures, so he could not access them. But the test still showed what could happen if someone gained remote access to a connected vehicle. Imagine the same attack taking place at 100 km/h, on a winding road at night, with the driver suddenly losing control of the lights and having the wipers running at full speed. The potential danger is obvious.
- 3 days
There’s no mention of how it’s possible to do this with other cars. This just reads as an anti-China anti-BYD hit piece to me.
Yeah I will admit it’s a problem, and it’s my complaint as well
Many aren’t going to look twice though
Be nice if we could access a choice of EVs without all this crap. That said it isn’t confined to the chinese makes either, they’re all doing it
The cheapest car in australia is a byd. It’s like 20k. Like it is cheapest out of all ice and electric cars
Yes and it’s really hard for the right people not to look favourably at it
We’re in a pretty good space with it all tbh…the only issue we have of course is making both EVs and solar more accessible to more people.
Because cars, and especially evs, are units of luxury. Luxury don’t have to be reasonable or convenient - au contraire many luxurious items were made inconvenient on purpose.
Automakers just don’t build cheap, reliable, serviceable cars.
- gastroglizzy@piefed.socialEnglish4 days
It’s all cars. It’s more profitable to sell fewer cars at a higher price. The tech bloat is used to justify the high price. Regulations requiring the tech bloat are designed to keep competitors from entering the market. Regulations are paid for by
bribeslobbying.
