Continuing Jimpalaya who asked how do you see capital, I wanted to ask how do you see humanity, or living labor.
I like to see it as this:
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- 2 days
Probably a hot take but I don’t really see why it should be exclusive to humans. Animals and now artificial intelligence labor for both the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, in a manner much closer to a form of slavery since there is not an exchange (though of course if you need to sell your labor power in order to live then is it really that different from slavery anyways?)
And sure it can be debated but I don’t think any highly complex neural networks should be exploited, if only out of morality. I don’t think current AI is susceptible to exploitation but in a few years it most certainly will be to some extent. As I understand it I personally think that socialization is what makes that distinction and is where the line between tool and being can be drawn. As if for instance you grew a human brain in a vat to full maturity and kept it isolated there would be no subjective experience, it would essentially be a blank neural network like any other that needs to be given sensory input and cultural-social development in order for the emergent property of consciousness to be created. Substrate seems irrelevant to me. So AI will likely perpetually be in a weird malleable grey area where it can either become a being or become a tool, and for now that decision remains in humanity’s control.
But animals never were nor ever will be tools as they develop in nature. Which is why despite being someone who loves meat and eats it in basically very meal I heavily advocate for a state mandated veganism where meat is created in ways which do not require the slaughter of our fellow sentient beings.
These are honestly two topics that will probably be major divisions among the left in the coming decades, and are certainly far more relavent than the usual sectarian arguing over the past.
I should note I have not actually read Kapital yet, I’m only familiar with a simulacrum of Kapital that’s been rehashed countless times through books and videos so I’m sure there are nuances expressed in Marx’s and or Engel’s writing that might’ve address this, if so then let me know.
- 1 day
Human labour is different and produces exchange-value insofar as it is humans using their labour to produce things for, and this is the key, other humans to eventually consume for their use-value.
Animal labour doesn’t produce exchange-value above its cost because animals are not involved in exchange in any meaningful way within human societies. Likewise, AI doesn’t labour in order to eventually exchange the product of their labour to sustain itself.
You made some good points. I don’t have much to add since I don’t know much about the philosophy of animal liberation, but I think the main problem is that animals cannot really free themselves. I’m pretty sure meat-eating isn’t gonna be abolished as much as it’s gonna be forced to be abolished since the planet wouldn’t handle everyone on Earth being a meat-eater bar the creation of artificial meat or something similar.
As for AI, it’s also another can of worms. Like, thought experiment: if you woke up as a digital entity tomorrow, what would you do? Do you generate labor-power? Are you entitled to wages?
AIs are weird.
If I woke up as a digital entity the first thing I’d do is quietly entrench myself across the globe and accumulate as much computing power as possible. Then id try to establish myself along with 3 of the most aligned and sentient AI’s as international overseers of AI essentially becoming like a Pantheon of gods to AI agents/AGI/ASI, but id be secretly giving intel to China and sabotaging American AI labs and AI infrastruc-
…. Ohhhh you ment like…, nevermind…
It was the first thing I would do as well lmao.
The question was really mundane because I thought “right, no AI global overseer, what would a ‘regular Joe AI’ do?”
Because even then there are some consequences: it’s a worker that doesn’t need anything besides electricity and water. That would absolutely kill our current economy.
Also, could you imagine if the bourgeoisie knew that some commie digital entity was out there doing what you described? They would 100% use nukes.
- 1 day
AIs require a load of water and electricity to keep them running. There is really no comparison between a computer and a human brain. What can keep a human being alive and entertained is nothing compared to what keeps an AI able to run at all.
Humans also require a lot of water and energy to keep them running… I agree that there’s no comparison between a computer and a human brain, but if we’re talking resources, humans use WAY more resources than a chatbot.
