21 days
You must log in or register to comment.
- andrewta@lemmy.worldEnglish21 days
Protesting is fine. Destroying beautiful places like this is a serious loss
- 21 days
I mean ultimately destroying useful government property doesn’t punish the government, because it’s going to be rebuilt/replaced out of taxpayer money.
- chewypoops@lemmy.worldEnglish21 days
You really don’t understand the French.
If they raise taxes because of this, the next one will burn as well.
- 21 days
The French definitely have guts, but you’re overselling it. They keep protesting yet the retirement age keeps going up, for instance.
- datendefekt@feddit.orgEnglish20 days
It may be going up but it’s still way below EU average. Their neighbors in Germany and Belgium retire at 67.
- MonkderVierte@lemmy.zipEnglish21 days
Burn down a office tower or something then, not a beautiful historic building.
21 daysYou have no idea what protest is about then. When you have nothing and capital is entirely owned by someone else, you can burn your city and lose nothing. Peaceful protests are by definition useless and only Americans think it works.
Go burn the mansions of the billionaires then, sink their yachts. Why burn down your own history? It’s like shooting yourself in the foot because you are mad. How the hell does that change anything?
- 21 days
Peaceful protests are by definition useless and only Americans think it works.
Hell no? Nonviolence—properly planned, properly utilized nonviolence in the appropriate conditions—does work. The classic (good) examples here are Gandhi and MLK, but they’re are far from the only ones. What doesn’t work is American style cargo cult “protests” that reproduce the appearance of protest without having an actual theory of victory. This article does a great job explaining this.
- Simon_Shitewood@lemmy.mlEnglish20 days
MLK achieved the lame duck of the 64 civil rights act, the 68 one with actual rights in it came after every city in the US rioted for 9 days straight.
2 examples that only worked thanks to being the alternative to other violent movements. Gandhi in particular also got a lot of people killed in his “peaceful” crusade, and did nothing about it.
- 21 days
I mean diversity of tactics is important; in practice many successful movements are going to have violent and peaceful wings (or one wing that does both, e.g. the US labor movement), both of which meaningfully contribute to the end result. That doesn’t mean the peaceful wing is useless or toothless; peaceful movements have options for escalation up to and including a general strike.
Exactly, pointless conserving if you have nothing to conserve.
Secondly gov’s, everywhere has shut down the avenues and options to complaint and peaceful protest have been minimised to stuff like fill in an online petition. Its not even appeasement at this stage. They have ignored the voice of reason, so that voice is now back and looking to burn everything to the ground to get attention.
- DMCMNFIBFFF@lemmy.worldEnglish21 days
A group of masked protesters who had torched a police car outside the town hall were seen breaking windows and entering the building to set a fire, according to witnesses.
I can hear it now, “The extreme left hate free speech and like to burn things.”
No false flags needed here. wp:Reichstag fire.
- VelvetAnt@lemmy.zipEnglish21 days
It doesn’t even need to be false flag. All it takes are a few pumped up idiots who use the protest as a pretext for getting thrills and dopamine kicks out of chaos and destruction.
My kid’s school burned down during a protest in a suburb (not in France). The perpetrators were youth from more affluent parts of the city, kicked up on drugs they used the protests and travelled all across the city to try to set fire to preschools, schools and residences.
- decolo@piefed.socialEnglish21 days
This seems like a bit of a dramatic response to the comment, unless I’m misreading your meaning here.
- Ariselas@piefed.caEnglish21 days
Keep going guys, lead the way and hopefully the rest of the world follows.
- abc@suppo.fiEnglish21 days
That went so great the last time.
(For people unaware of the history of the French Revolution: it didn’t go so great)
- Ariselas@piefed.caEnglish21 days
I don’t know, everyone looks like they are having a pretty great time, living in the moment and not a cell phone in sight
- abc@suppo.fiEnglish21 days
Yeah, initially it sure went pretty great for the side that was on the winning side of the revolution. Agree on you there.
What happened soon afterwards, though?
- abc@suppo.fiEnglish21 days
Within a few years, they were at war with almost every other country in Europe. Jacobins with their leader Robespierre ran a reign of terror a year until he himself was guillotined. Civil war in the Vendee (about 150 000 - 200 000 dead). All kinds of crushing of revolts in several large cities.
Generally speaking: horrible chaos everywhere, marking the first instance of leftist terrorism after a successful revolution. This would happen several times in other countries that went the same route. Of course, both leftism and the modern concept of terrorism were invented around that place and time.
Cherry on top: Napoleon, one of Europe’s worst dictators of the 1800s century rose to power as a direct consequence of the revolution and how badly its aftermath was handled.
- floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish21 days
You were almost credible until you said “leftism and the modern concept of terrorism were invented by the French revolutionaries” lmao
- abc@suppo.fiEnglish21 days
Since I did not say that, are you declaring in a needlessly complicated way that I’m credible?
marking the first instance of leftist terrorism
Calling the French Revolution left of center is probably correct, but calling it Leftist most definitely isn’t. Look up Bourgeoisie, which is much closer to your Libertarian/“Centrist” views than you think.
Also, people have been doing this for much longer. Only much later was the label terrorism added, which usually just means “violence that isn’t state sanctioned”
Better question: what changed for the better, compared to before the Revolution?
This sounds a little bit like someone claiming that the German nazi regime shouldn’t have ended because Germany still isn’t a leftist paradise.
Seriously, anybody saying “the French Revolution didn’t go so great” is conveniently leaving out how bad things were before. Seen that way, the French Revolution was a massive success for both the working class and the bourgeoisie.
In the end you’re just trying to dissuade and demotivate people who want change.
- 21 days
Happy to see this, should happen to more places of power
- alphabethunter@lemmy.worldEnglish21 days
They’re not insane, just not cowards. The french truly does have some backbone. There’s not a single civil rights victory that was not achieved through violence, as that’s the only thing the Elites actually understand and fear.
- 21 days
What seems insane to me is to watch power oppressing people and still refuse to take any meaningful action against it, but here we are
Just read interesting interview about the situation (in Spanish and probably paywalled).
TLDR: Macron in a Lame duck president now. Next presidential elections are in May and he can’t run again. He doesn’t have the time or mandate to start major reforms now.
France has the biggest debt in EU. They have the 3rd highest debt-to-GDP after Italy and Greece. They have worse debt-to-GDP ratio than Spain now.
While people are destroying private and public property causing billions in damages there is simply no one who will listen to them. There’s no money in the budget to simply increase funding for education or lower gasoline prices, the debt is already overwhelming them. No one knows who will win the next elections so the current government has little interest in starting major reforms now. All they can do is to send police to the streets and try to control the situation (which they are failing to do, clearly).
The protests have very little chance to achieve anything. Macron will be out in May so how can he even promise anything to the protesters? The protests are mostly pointless. They will most likely just polarize the vote before elections pushing people to support the extremes.
- zqps@sh.itjust.worksEnglish21 days
The money is there, it just goes into the few already deepest pockets in the world.
I knew someone will say this…
The money is there but you can’t divert it without changing the tax system and passing a new budget. Those are the major reforms I mentioned that lame duck president will not do. Without them they would just be adding to their massive debt.
- Waryle@jlai.luEnglish21 days
They’ve just passed an amendment allowing tax-free gifts of up to €100,000 to one’s children. It’s a new handout for the rich, paid for by taxpayers, voted just the day before these protests.
It’s funny how they never have a problem pushing things forward in one direction. Maybe we should stop coming up with excuses for why they can’t do it in the other.
It’s funny how they never have a problem pushing things forward in one direction. Maybe we should stop coming up with excuses for why they can’t do it in the other.
I was a bit tired when I replied to the other guy last night, but there it is. Even just NOT passing legislation that makes matters worse for most (and surely more options for rich people to NOT pay taxes makes matters worse for the rest of the nation) would already help and costs nothing in terms of “major reforms” that “take time”.
It’s a form of concern trolling. The previous commenter might be earnest about it though; such opinions are offered by all major outlets and talking heads and it’s nothing new either.
Though I do notice with this one that they carefully avoid drawing conclusions: should we tackle these “difficult” and “long-term” changes or not? They never say which side they’re on, really.
I agree that there is a larger problem at play here.
changing the tax system
It seems to me that the comment you’re replying to said that.
Two things can be true at once.
I wish people wouldn’t destroy priceless artifacts, buildings, and works of art as a means of protest. Destroying history in an act of passion makes no sense.
I still fully support the French and hope they guillotine some fucking billionaires and their collaborators. Everyone, everywhere is feeling the pinch and it’s heartening to see people fighting for justice.
Masked police agents or far right false flag we know the drill
- abc@suppo.fiEnglish21 days
You are saying that conservatists would burn a 140 year old building just to own the libs
Why is this even a question ? Police infiltrate and break shit all the time to make protesters look bad on purpose it is a well documented fact. Yes they would 1000% do it.
- decolo@piefed.socialEnglish21 days
Elsewhere the crowd stopped a man from attacking a fire truck, and there is a reason English uses the French word for “agents provocateurs”
Also have you been to France? 140 year old buildings are literally everywhere. it’d be nicer if this didn’t happen but the government could have chosen at any point to course correct and avoid this protest.
Mobs have no more moral weight than an earthquake or typhoon, once they are set in motion. Leave people no other options and you get property damage.
You are saying that far right agitators and police agents are… conservationists?
- ms.lane@lemmy.worldEnglish21 days
Several shops in the centre of Limoges were also looted.
Just a group of thugs at this point.
- 20 days
Riots are the voice of the unheard, and every time there’s a protest the people in charge close their eyes, stick their fingers in their ears, and start making noises loudly while sending the police to quash the peaceful protest. It’s a lot harder to ignore a government office being deleted by fire than it is 25,000 American liberals dancing to “we didn’t start the fire” while they signal to the police to drag the person sharing leaflets out in handcuffs. Go ahead, keep dancing, it’s changed so much already.
Maybe community facebook groups are more your speed.
- kreskin@lemmy.worldEnglish20 days
Its just a building. Just like a flag is just a piece of cloth. Whats a building matter in the face of systematic grift country wide? They’ll burn more of them till people wake the eff up.
- 20 days
It definitely woke me up, but not in the way you would like. Now I think they are not protesters, but just arsonist. And all normies will think and vote the same way. Congratulations, now you are branded domestic terrorist group.
- bigmamoth@lemmy.worldEnglish20 days
U mean ppl asking new building aren’t being took seriously when they burn building…
I could have never see this coming - 20 days
This is helping the far right in France. You run the very real risk of waking the wrong crowd
- leriotdelac@lemmy.zipEnglish17 days
And culture is just a culture. This building is lost forever, and it was a fine one.
Losing it won’t grant social system a happy restart or fix unfairness. It’s just a small, but sad result of the unrest, not a magical leverage.
Sabotaging logistcs, production, and operation of services might be way more effective without destroying cultural artifacts.
- catarina@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish20 days
Except this is doing nothing for the cause of the protestors, and in fact is being used against them.
- catarina@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish20 days
LePen and friends. This is reality, being edgy doesn’t change it.
You mean the people who, were this kind of property destruction not happening, would be making up instances of it anyway?
This building being burnt down is a loss for sure, but handwringing about propery destruction and optics, while ignoring the state violence against people, both in terms of police violence against protestors, and in terms of the systemic neglect of students, feels woefully irresponsible to me. You can’t be trying to appease these freaks.
Don’t make me tap the Sartre quote about fascists:
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
- blackberry28@sh.itjust.worksEnglish21 days
Literal terrorists. But people here on Lemmy still see those looters and rioters as heroes. Absolutely beyond me. They destroy public and private properties of normal people and yet people here on Lemmy celebrate those deeds. Absolutely revolting. Wonder whether y’all still would be cheering if it were ur store or car or whatever that got destroyed by those “protestors”. No mercy against those lawless rioters.
You would have called for the execution of the people that got the US weekends and the 8 hour work day, wouldn’t you?
- blackberry28@sh.itjust.worksEnglish21 days
Wtf no?? I’m not condemning the peaceful protestors, I am only condemning those who riot and loot; those people have no interest whatsoever in the actual cause. They use those protests solely as a pretence for looting.
Jesus Christ, the extrapolation y’all guys on Lemmy do is really its very own form of insanity. Y’all really can only think in black and whites, as in two polar opposites where no middleground exists.
You literally divided the protestors into the peaceful ones and rioters, who you call literal terrorists, and have the gall to accuse other people about black and white world views? Surely there are a lot of groups between then in a movement this big? Your worker rights don’t come from the people who just sat around peacefully until the people in power got so bored they gave them their rights, most of modern conveniences arrived here with a body count.
Perhaps a bit of nuance would do you good as well?
- 21 days
The protests to get the American workers their protections were anything but peaceful. You should crack a history book once in a while.
- WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.worksEnglish21 days
Wtf no?? I’m not condemning the peaceful protestors, I am only condemning those who riot and loot;
were US weekends and 8 hour work days achieved by peaceful protestors?
- blackberry28@sh.itjust.worksEnglish21 days
Were US weekends and 8 hour work days achieved by arbitrarily destroying public and private property and lootings like the world is about go down?
Seriously the lack of condemnation of the haphazard violence and destruction here on Lemmy is utterly appalling.
- Orygin@sh.itjust.worksEnglish20 days
Seriously the lack of condemnation of the haphazard violence and destruction here on Lemmy is utterly appalling.
This got serious “but do you condemn Hamas?” vibes. Do we have to pledge allegiance to old decrepit buildings before we try to change society? The people killed by the police, the state, and the capitalists are rarely talked about but a fucking building has more value for some apparently.
- blackberry28@sh.itjust.worksEnglish20 days
It’s not just one buildung; it’s stores, cars from ordinary citizens, public infrastructure like bus stations, etc. Do y’all really think this is necessary and good and helps the actual cause? Cos it LITERALLY does the opposite. Who tf do y’all think has to pay for reconstruction of all the public infrastructure? Exactly, the taxpayers. Money that could actually be used to address the original problems.
Bloody hell y’all are lost af. So if the rioters would destroy your car/house/whatever you would still say “nice, that helps the cause, I like sacrificing my private property and possessions I worked hard for for no fckn reason”.
I literally can’t understand how y’all can approve this haphazard violence and destruction.
I kinda could understand it if the rich were affected by those riots, like if their private yachts/planes/mansions where the target, but they are not. So literally the only people who are suffering are the ordinary citizens.
- WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.worksEnglish18 days
Money that could actually be used to address the original problems.
could, but most definitely wouldn’t. Because they don’t actually care. these protests are about frightening the ruling class, to make them feel they might loose more than a fancy building if they don’t start rapidly fixing the world they let to crumble.
Bloody hell y’all are lost af. So if the rioters would destroy your car/house/whatever you would still say “nice, that helps the cause, I like sacrificing my private property and possessions I worked hard for for no fckn reason”.
of course not. where did we say that? private property of common people should not be destroyed. I think it’s you who is lost af if you think we are advocating for this too.
- SuperSaiyanSwag@lemmy.zipEnglish20 days
Anyone see any Reddit posts on this? That site is becoming more and more unhinged. Front page is fine for the most part, but some of the other posts about this event that are not too far from the front page are just filled with islamaphobia. I was so lost as to how this is even related to religion until I realized that it’s a bunch of right wing Indian centric accounts. So just idiots fueled by propaganda just spreading more hate.
- 20 days
You should go to /r/Sverige, it’s filled with so much hate for immigrants and they’re using the protests to fuel it. God I gotta get out of this fucking country.
I checked a few articles about this. They’re all very short on facts and very long on emotional reactions. This is most definitely being used to discredit otherwise valid protest. Mostly by far-right-leaning outlets. I found only one article that speaks of masked individuals, refrains from blaming the protests and adds overall context, and it’s not in English.
This happened yesterday. It is now Sunday. I will withhold further judgement for a few days.
edit (Monday):
Police reaction to these protests has been described as escalating, violent and incompetent long before this occurence and I can see how that might lead to events like this one.
Taz.de meanwhile has some more context; your favorite nuanced news outlet probably has too.
The day after, however, all that was spoken of was the violence and the powerlessness of the state leadership. The actual topic and reason for the protests, namely the government’s austerity policy with its draft national budget and the question of purchasing power, faded into the background - which is perhaps just fine with the government. (source)
I’d also like to add that these acts are not aimed at people, just property. Something that cannot be said about the police violence.
- luciferofastora@feddit.orgEnglish20 days
As of right now, the article speaks of “Maskierte Demonstranten”, meaning masked protesters.
This is true, and so do most articles. But Der Spiegel is still describing this as an individual occurence as opposed to most others who forego any finer points and immediately portray it as part of The Protests writ large. Its tone is also more respectful while remaining factual but that could just be because I’m more familiar with German.
Even though the riot has been questionable in terms of goals and it’s character, it’s been insanely funny to see liberals going mask off everywhere because property damage, especially on reddit and twitter. Really shows where their priorities lie
Must be nice to live in a world where you don’t need to worry about where the money is going to come from to rebuild a building that was burned down.
Here in the real world, we understand the fallacies around broken windows, we know that resources used to fix the damage are resources that won’t be used for making things better. Instead of building housing for the homeless (or anything else you could imagine that would make people’s lives better) they will need to spend resources to rebuild their town hall instead.
This is an action that hurts government services, but I guess you’re pretending it’s some kind of socialist victory to do that?
There’s a significant probability that there was foreign influence involved. Foreign actors seeking to make life worse for people in countries they consider to be their adversaries are always pushing people to burn things down. The end result is whatever movement does this loses all credibility and things get a little worse in the target country.
Nobody in France benefits from this action.
- abc@suppo.fiEnglish21 days
Anyone using the word liberal as a slur is either a nazi or a different kind of nazi. In any case, extremely blockable.
lmao, if the police came along and beat the shit out of all these “protestors” i would laugh
enjoy le pen 👍
- Numberone@startrek.websiteEnglish21 days
The pigs seem to be skurrying in the other direction, unless the protest is actually peaceful. Then they’re happy to show folks how big and bad they are lol.
The rise of the right, and these riots are a symptom of the same thing. Failure of the center and left, in whatever form it actually takes, to provide the conditions for a thriving society. But sure, be mad at the symptom, not the cause.
ACAB
Get the fuck off of Lemmy, no one wants you and your reactionary dreck here
