I keep hearing people say that the far-left is significantly less organised, more fragmented than the far-right. Why is that? (And to be clear: I’m asking about the far-left, not just the left in general (though they may be linked)
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- 7 days
Is it though? At least here in the Netherlands, the far right is not much better. There’s constant infighting, egos tripping over each other, new “messiahs” taking over and crashing down. We have JA21 and van Haga who both split off of the FvD when the mask went fully off. We have groep Markuszower who split off of the PVV. And on top of that parties like the BBB and people like Mona Keijzer who try to claim the spotlight. The originally liberal VVD trying to get a piece of the pie.
I’m happy for it though. Much rather this than an organized right.
But yeah, leftists can definitely be a purity contest sometimes.
At least here in the Netherlands, the far right is not much better
That doesn’t mean necessarily that the far left isn’t disorganised, only that the far right is as disorganised. If the far right is likewise disorganised over there, it doesn’t mean the far left isn’t, only that they’re both disorganised.
As for the rest of your comment, I’m afraid I’m not sure of who most of them people/groups are, though that’s purely because I’m from the Netherlands and don’t have knowledge of how your government works. But I’ll be sure to look into your country, it sounds like it could be interesting to see the disorganisation on both sides of the political spectrum.
my head-canon tells me the right’s goal can be simplified down to whatever makes me the most money/power
the left, on the other hand, can have multiple ways and layers and sensitivities on what can be said is the morally-correct way to handle things.
- SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.caEnglish7 days
In Canada, it’s because they threw out all the labor rights people and replaced them with people adding letters to LGBTQ+TS+ BLT…
The far right only have to organise around a handful of simplistic ideas. They talk in tabloid headlines. Smear shit and hope the millionaire fash send money your way. It’s as easy as flipping hamburgers.
The left have to deal with the complexities of reality. They need to talk with stakeholders and learn from specialists in a given subject at a given time. They are limited by language that can express the complexity of our societies and what makes them run well.
I’m not saying that’s the full explanation, but it’s inherently harder to organise something more complex and creative. It’s easier to organise a dirty protest.
- Freeposity@lemmy.worldEnglish9 days
The far right is funded by deep pockets and is not attacked by the establishment Republicans.
If the Democratic Party establishment would see the left as an asset rather than a threat then things might change.
- 9 days
Well, that’s the thing about the Democratic Party. They actually aren’t left of center. They are performatively left on a few social issues when it’s convenient.
The Democratic Party is at left as it can be without touching underlying capitalist structure, which is to say, it is not properly left at all.
- 9 days
I agree with this, and it’s why movements like OWS and BLM have more or less done nothing. Those are complex concepts with lists of things that need to be done. The right has “Lower taxes” and “Let us be racist”. The left though has nuanced concepts and new things that people have never heard of. People hear “Lower taxes” and know what that means. Universal healthcare is new and complex, and so the right reduces it to something they understand, “higher taxes” and other fearmongering. Meanwhile we’re trying to show amortization rates of providing care to everyone and the right has simple phrases.
Rinse and repeat for everything. We tried “Defund police” but the right only heard “No more police” because there is a lot of nuance to “defund police”, like demilitarizing and focusing on sending in people who can actually help. “Climate change” is a complex nuanced subject that takes a long time to understand, but the right reduces it to “They want to take away your truck”.
Gay marriage I think worked because it was a very simple message, allow gays to marry. They tried to reduce it however they could but in that case their arguments were the harder ones to follow. I think we need to think about how we describe things, and try to avoid from the beginning needing to explain concept subjects to (I’m sorry but) simple people. Universal healthcare should simply mean “We run a government level insurance program, like all of the other countries, so no one gets denied coverage”. Or something like that.
“No more police” is a pretty simple idea that seems to have slipped by you so idk
- 9 days
“No more police” is an idealistic concept that would never make it out of committee and is routinely used by the right to “prove” to themselves that we can’t be taken seriously. “Demilitarized police” instead is a concept that could be actually implemented, and could get support from both the people and politicians and could actually be implemented.
If you seriously believe that we could pivot next year to “no more police” then you’re deluding yourself, there’s no politician in this entire country who would stake their career on that. Nice to dream, but no way in reality it would ever happen, and using it only fuels the right.
I’m not looking for a politician to take anything seriously. I am looking for we the people to remake this godforsaken place, and that means implementing our goals directly, which includes dismantling every police station and sheriff’s office.
Seriously the police are kidnapping people at random and you still don’t get that the system is broken?
I’m not so unreasonable to assume that no one who is currently wearing a badge and gun can rehabilitate themselves into productive members of society, but the systems that they work as a part of need shut the fuck down.
- 8 days
ICE is a natural evolution of the way American police have operated for decades now. It’s wild that people don’t see that. They didn’t just appear from nowhere.
Are they worse than police? Arguably yes, but they didn’t just appear spontaneously from nowhere. Our failure to reign in the police and force them to obey the law led directly to the behavior we now see from ICE. We’ve let the white supremacists run wild and refine their techniques for a long time now.
- 8 days
It depends on the place, many cities and states have rules that prevent local police from helping ICE. I’m not saying that police don’t need reform because I think that’s what the whole ‘defund the police’ movement is really about, but to say that all police support ICE is inaccurate - otherwise sanctuary cities simply wouldn’t be allowed to exist. Now, there aren’t nearly as many sanctuary cities as I’d like - and more states would do well to follow the example of states like Oregon, Colorado, Minnesota, etc.
That’s another topic entirely, though.
- 7 days
When you go far enough left and right on the spectrum they become indiscernible.
- 8 days
As others mentioned, ICE are not police.
On top of that again it’s idealism vs realism. Yes idealism is what it could be, but the system isn’t changing anytime soon. I’m sorry, but it’s not. Unless the majority of people suddenly mobilize, but I’ve been waiting now 30 years and at multiple points thought maybe they finally would, but it’s not happening. Once you realize that it’s idealism, then you can move into realistic options.
I’m not looking for a politician to take anything seriously. I am looking for we the people to remake this godforsaken place,
And this is why those movements fail.
- Soggy@lemmy.worldEnglish7 days
They only need to convince like 200 million people to their specific ideals, piece of cake.
- 8 days
I had a hysterical family member reading the DSA and saying “they want to abolish the police and prisons, that’s crazy to just let all those people walk the streets.”
I attempted to clarify that the prison industrial complex is so corrupt and broken it needs to be completely replaced and their reply was, “well the website doesn’t say that so what am I supposed to believe?”
- 9 days
This is the reason why we decide to infight instead. It’s so much less effort than using the mental energy it takes to hang with other visibly different or distasteful people. Better just spend the days figuring out how to deliver sick owns to people who are within our reach and not prepared because they were expecting to be fighting against Maga.
This is how pussies fight but you bet it’s easier than cooperating with anyone in a plurality
- kkj@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish9 days
Caring about things like “facts” and “not hurting people” is a real drag.
- 8 days
I was at a Moral Mondays protest in Raleigh NC a while back and someone with a bullhorn called out “What do we want?!”
And the crowd yelled back, all at once:
“Racial justice!”
“Marriage equality!”
“Immigration reform!”
“Police reform!”
“Impeach Trump!”
“Close Guantanamo!”
“Better pay for teachers!”
…and a bunch of other demands too many to understand in a crowd that large, and while I knew I was with the right people, I had a sinking feeling about our chances of achieving much of anything.
That sounds like an exceptionally unplanned rally, or the wrong person had the bullhorn. But we have to start somewhere so well done all.
- NaibofTabr@infosec.pubEnglish9 days
Purity tests.
There’s enough holier-than-thou in most leftist groups to power the Catholic church for millennia.
- 9 days
Yeah people on the right are lot more likely to overlook their disagreements as long as they can agree on a few things
- 8 days
And it spreads everywhere. Can’t even partake in pride march because of my wrong cultural views. Simply being gay isn’t enough anymore - need to sing up for the package deal.
8 daysWhat are these views, if I may ask? I have yet to see a pride march that is very exclusionary
- 8 days
Last pride march here had a ton of Palestinian flags there for example that not only has nothing to do with pride but is also a hilariously ignorant thing to do considering how gays get treated in most Muslim-majority countries.
It’s a left-wing event pretty much. If you’re gay who leans right you’re effectively straight.
But you weren’t excluded for not having a palestine flag, were you?
You could participate the same way as everone else.
The palestinians are fighting a similar fight as LGBT+ people because they are oppressed because of their identity. The people who bring Palestine flags want to show their support of the people affected by the genocide. They very rarely support the oppressive policies against LGBT+ People.
Pride should be against any sort of oppression.
- 8 days
No, I’m not excluded. I just don’t want to march for an unrelated cause that people smuggle in which I don’t support. They wouldn’t tolerate me waving an Israeli flag there either, nor should they.
One of these nations is the victim of genocide right now, the other one is commiting it.
An Israel flag is similarly not appreciated like a russian or american flag would be. When the Ukraine war started, a lot of people also brought ukraine flags to unrelated protests.
It is also not a fully unrelated cause, as the palestine flag also stands for an oppressed group like the pride flag. By joining the march you are protesting against oppression, so it isn’t that far off.
If you are against one kind of oppression but not against another, you aren’t really against oppression.
- 8 days
If you are against one kind of oppression but not against another, you aren’t really against oppression.
Which circles back to my original point: simply being gay is no longer good enough.
- 8 days
“A similar fight because they are oppressed because of their identity” Which phrase like that u can include Hitler btw Having Palestinian flag at a pride dont help Palestinian. But it make lgbtq members being forced into a box that has nothing to do with them
- 8 days
It doesn’t help that the right infiltrates and murders left wing movements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_Wars
I’m not a historian so I’m struggling to remember specific details. “People’s History of the United States” by Zinn includes many examples that went like “People wanted to organize for something better” -> “Capitalists said no, and had the police beat up and arrest people”
- 7 days
Apparently Gloria Steinem was funded by the CIA. Also, Jackson Pollock was a psy-op, more specifically, the supposed value of the dogshit he created.
- Soggy@lemmy.worldEnglish7 days
That’s a dishonest oversimplification of Gloria Steinem’s situation, and you’re going to have to elaborate on Pollock. (But it sounds like you’re already biased against him too far to be objective, dismissing his contributions to modern art)
- 7 days
You sound like a bot. My opinions on Steinem and Pollock are based on recent revelations that they were both funded by the CIA. I couldn’t care less about either one 5 years ago. The whole modern art movement was apparently a psy-op in order to discredit anyone farther (further?) left than Hillary Clinton.
- Soggy@lemmy.worldEnglish7 days
The “whole modern art movement”? I’m not disputing the CIA’s history of nefarious dealings or infiltrating groups to put their thumb on the scale, but the scope of that claim exceeds even COINTELPRO.
What they did was support a movement already in place because they felt it helped against Communism somehow. (And the USSR was doing pretty much the same thing the other direction) And it’s not like they’re signing a bunch of checks “CIA” and handing them out to artists and organizers, it was soft support through foundations and museums and stuff. It doesn’t detract from their work. It kinda sounds like you half-watched one YouTube video.
- 7 days
So you acknowledge CIA fuckery, but have to resort to ad hominem attacks and whataboutism just like Kirk, Shapiro and Peterson. You and assholes like you are exactly the reason Left-wing politics are so ineffectual, hence proving my point.
- 9 days
Is it really more disorganized? Ive seen and heard of far right groups tearing each other apart over minor differences of values or infidelity. Maybe its simply a matter of complexity of goals. The left is trying to build a new and fair world, all while preserving as much of humanity and the planet as possible. The far right on the other hand seems to concern itself almost entirely with destroying progress the left makes, they seem to not care at all about the what comes after or the harm that is caused by their changes. So they only need to agree on what needs to go, and don’t need to agree on what comes next because they haven’t thought about it and don’t care who has to live in the squalor they leave behind.
- Freeposity@lemmy.worldEnglish9 days
The far right on the other hand seems to concern itself almost entirely with destroying progress the left makes
And it’s far far easier to destroy than it is to create.
Because, contrary to what they say, a lot of leftists are intolerant of opinions that differ from their own. A lot of them have a black-white mentality, where either you are 100% with them or otherwise you are against them and might as well be Hitler incarnate. They live in extreme bubbles which just enforces this behaviour. You can see this very well in some subreddits and also here on Lemmy, since Lemmy is very left leaning.
In german we have this saying:
“Treffen sich 2 Linke, bilden sich drei Splittergruppen”
“Two leftists meet, 3 splintergroups are formed”.
Far left has a lot of good ideas and how to go about them is debated, often loudly and messily.
Far right has stupid people, which are happy to go confidently along.
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell
It’s only because of their stupidity that they’re able to be so sure of themselves. - Franz Kafka
Adding on:
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.From W. B. Yeats, The Second Coming
The whole principle of right wing thought is strict vertical hierarchies. For their moral flaws, strict vertical hierarchies are a pretty efficient way to organize the average person. The whole principle of left wing thought is flattened, distributed hierarchies. For their moral virtues, decentralized flat hierarchies are pretty slow to organize. It’s a lot simpler to fall in behind an authority figure than participate in never ending sub-sub-subcommittees.
It’s hard to unify around a course of action when your whole thing is incorporating diverse perspectives and rejecting centralization. I’m not saying it’s not the right thing to do, it is, but it presents inherent challenges.
In other words, taking differing opinions into account and building things is hard. Deferring to what a “superior” is telling you is easy.
The far right is financed by billionaires. Guess who finances the far left?
- 7 days
To add to that, it’s “easier” to be in the far right then the far left. Due to promotion of the right it feels easier to fit into that group, and lizard brain likes them bad us good make bad go away. Even when they are totally bass ackwards on the facts. U can’t reason people out of positions that didn’t reason themselves into, and it’s easy to make people take up unreasonable positions when u flood them with misinformation campaigns and ruin the education system. This is u fortunatley appearing to be a global phenomenon, no doubt the global populace is headed toward Idiocracy.
- Furbag@pawb.socialEnglish7 days
Okay? He’s still quite clearly a left-wing billionaire donor.
Oh, I see. He doesn’t meet your purity standards. My mistake for not being able to find an anarcho-communist billionaire in an age where the Overton Window is floating somewhere in the mid Atlantic.
Republicans certainly denigrate him as far left all the time. I think that has to count for something.
He’s literally, definitionally, not far left, no purity test needed, lmao. Far left would be communism, maybe anarchism. Do you think there are communist or anarchist billionaires?
Do you always concede to right wing framing at the drop of a hat? Grow a spine. Words have definitions.
- Furbag@pawb.socialEnglish7 days
Ok, sorry if I came across as hostile or sardonic earlier, not my intention, but… chill out a bit, yeah? We’re having a conversation.
Let me clarify my position, just for the sake of argument.
If the Republican party is the far right party, and the Democratic party is not far-left enough to be considered far-left, then the answer to the question “Who funds the far-left” then is apparently nobody, because they functionally do not exist as a political power in the United States. It’s kind of like asking “Who has been hiding Bigfoot all these years?” - it presumes that Bigfoot is real to begin with.
In the absence of a far-left party in America, you’re right, there are no billionaires funding the far-left.
However, they call it the political spectrum because it’s a spectrum. Words, as you say, have definitions. Who would be considered the farthest left politician in government right now? Bernie Sanders? AOC? Zohran Mamdani? Those folk could be considered progressive politicians, but that’s about as far-left as you can possibly get in the current political climate. They represent the “far-left” faction of the democratic party. As much as I dislike it, progressives take money from billionaires too.
I’m not conceding to far-right framing, it’s just reality.
Real-world problems are complex. Every solution to one problem affects other systems in unpredictable ways. When a large group of people agree on a solution, it is usually because it is simplistic and wrong.
Classic example: prices are high. The left blames actual scarcity, corporate greed, climate change, institutional problems. Any solution that might address high prices will be complex and will have side effects. This will cause people to disagree.
On the right, some jerkwad like Trump says “prices are high because of immigration - specifically, the immigration of brown people.” The solution is ICE! Simple, easy to understand, dead wrong. Everyone on the right cheers!!!
In other words: people hear what they want to, an easy scapegoat answer.
Yeah. It has happened over and over. For Hitler, it was the Jews: they cost Germany the war, they are the root of all social problems, etc. It is almost always some minority like immigrants or trans people. Scapegoats unify, complexity divides.
- 7 days
Authoritarians have endless enemies and boogie men, the Nazi went after way more than just Jews exactly like the US is against way more than just brown immigrants. It’s always all minorities, immigrants, queers, leftists, socialists, scientists, historians, they will just keep adding to the list until there is nobody left if they have control for long enough.
You are right! The Jews were their principal victims, but the Nazis feared and hated anyone who didn’t match their chosen in-group. It is the same in America.
It makes me realize why solidarity among those opposed to fascism is so important. I am not trans (for example), but I must stand in solidarity with trans people because the right wants to divide us. In fact, we should count that desire as one of the reasons the ‘left’ appears disorganized: the right sows chaos and discord among its enemies to make them easier to subjugate.
That’s an interesting point. I’ll definitely be more wary of scapegoat answers in party politics now.
I think the far-left has more diversity in its political positions and its factions usually don’t get along with each other simply because their projects are incompatible. That may cause a little bit of “disorganization” but I don’t think that’s bad per se. It could be seen as a sign of critical thinking.
its factions usually don’t get along with each other simply because their projects are incompatible
What do you mean by that? Can you give me an example?
For example, marxist-leninists have a very different approach to the anti-capitalist fight compared to most anarchists. Another similar example would be platformists anarchists and communizers (communization theory): generally, both are communists; however, platformists stress the importance of a mass organization that would engage with dual power structures, while communizers don’t.
