- 6 days
ITT: americans circlejerking and thinking europe is a country and that the gypsy situation in for example portugal is the same as in bulgaria
- 5 days
We could extend it to Europeans talking about Africans, “Muslims” or anyone else. The picture would still be valid.
- 5 days
…okay, and how does that apply to the topic and the comment section about gypsies?
- 4 days
Their hatred for others extends far beyond just gypsies. It’s about how Europeans are a lot more bigoted than they’re given credit for.
- 7 days
I remember my grandfather in the 90s warning me not to go to close to the “wagon” (a trailer) of “the gypsies” because they “steal children”. I actually wound up over there when I adventured out alone from the camping place. The woman was cutting her husband’s hair and it was the first time I had seen a man with pretty, long, shiny black hair, I was fascinated. They were friendly but “talked weird” (they had an accent). I never understood the hate… because obviously, they didn’t steal me away… but my grandfathers generation left that narrative behind for my parents and my generation to pick up and continue. I whish it could have died with him.
Curiously, the Romani came up when Congress was discussing the scope of the 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution of the United States. The argument was if birthright citizenship was universal, we’d have to give it to them.
At the time, sounder minds prevailed.
Nobody likes migratory cultures. But it also appears nobody likes cultures too different from their own. And once we start cutting out ones we think are too alien, we rapidly move towards cutting into those who worship on the wrong day.
If you want a culture to stop migrating, maybe facilitate their access to homes? I’ve yet to encounter a culture that doesn’t like comfort and convenience.
- 6 days
This is gonna cause some grump.
Both the EU and America have a race problem but I dunno from my perspective racism in Europe is so much more common and unchallenged. I think a lot of people have an inflated view of American racism cause they talk so often about it. I also don’t think the racism is the same, a lot of Europeans seem more racist about cultural differences than just skin color where Americans seem more skin deep racists.
I dunno just my opinion though.
I also think these parts of the world are the most culturally diverse so they talk about it but other parts of the world are SOOOO much more racist it isn’t even a comparison.
- freely1333@reddthat.comEnglish6 days
Americans tend to sensationalize anything so if someone says “I don’t like music about drug dealing and shooting people,” there is a good chunk of folks who would immediately say (unironically) that said person is racist against black people.
You’re not wrong. Americans have an obsession with skin colour and thinks that is what divides humanity. I remember a screenshot post of a black user asking, and to paraphrase: “remove poc’s what how would white people divide themselves?” The user is likely someone from North America and had never gone to Europe, or know its history, to see how divided Europeans are, even before the large immigration from outside the continent.
- 6 days
I think that a nation can impose rules on how their culture relates to others. There is nothing wrong in a state that’s purpose is to presereve its culture’s majority, language and so on. The problem is not immigration itself, but the causes (neocolonialism).
The problem is that right-wing populists make a career on promising solving problem they caused themselves. The liberal multicultural utopia cant sustain itself, and doesnt have any long-term benefits to the humanity or a particular society.
There is nothing wrong in a state that’s purpose is to presereve its culture’s majority, language and so on.
I have to disagree with you entirely.
First off, persistent culture and language are both illusions. Culture of a region changes dramatically due to circumstances and progress even without the influence of immigration. Language not only changes across time but across regions. The American vernacular spoken in Atlanta is distinct from Chicago or Los Angeles, or Seattle.
Secondly, intrinsic non-mainstream and counter-culture groups are going to be marginalized, and as Dr. King observed there’s a pipeline from not worthy to be my neighbor to genocide. And history continuously bears this out. Culture includes the chattelization of women. It includes the criminalization of LGBT+. It includes the persecution of other religions, of other ministries of the same religion. It includes preserving commercial monopolies. Culture includes the preservation of sociopolitical hierarchies and dynastic power.
Culture is blood and soil.
In the US today, the culture war is over the genocide of immigrants and LGBT+ and the ultimately exclusion of everyone who is not MAGA and white Christian nationalist. It is about the genocide of everyone not part of the movement in the name of white supremacy. And ultimately MAGA will start cutting into its own. The fascists always do.
Give me diversity, equity and inclusion. Give me pluralistic liberal democracy that values human rights over property rights, that values rule of law. In that environment, the cultures will sort themselves out, and blend into regional variations unique to the area. We don’t need moral guardians trying to tell society what it should be.
And, then we can have Chicago-style pizza and New-York-style pizza.
We can have Methodism, Catholicism, Sunni Islam, Hindi, and Atheism in the same city. (And hundreds of other faiths, spiritual dispositions and identity communities.)
We can allow people to explore sexual and gender identity on their own terms, and find there’s even a letter for them in the alphabet.
We can have an economy that isn’t run by only a dozen conglomerate corporations selling us shoddy goods for fixed prices. Rather we can regulate the economy to serve the people, with robust competition and state-sponsored science.
We can have a society that is shaped by the will of the people, rather than the personal preferences of a handful of oligarchs.
No, culture has lost the plot, and no culture should be privileged in a society over any other. Whenever we allow it, xenophobia dominates, and genocide follows.
- 4 days
I will structure my answers accordingly to the spaces. If I missed something you can point it out, I’d like to not reduct the discussion to one specific issue , thus making the argument kinda pointless. Also my level of english is kinda bad, so I might make no sense sometimes or repeat some statements.
First off, persistent culture and language are both illusions. Culture of a region changes dramatically due to circumstances and progress even without the influence of immigration. Language not only changes across time but across regions. The American vernacular spoken in Atlanta is distinct from Chicago or Los Angeles, or Seattle. Secondly, intrinsic non-mainstream and counter-culture groups are going to be marginalized, and as Dr. King observed there’s a pipeline from not worthy to be my neighbor to genocide. And history continuously bears this out. Culture includes the chattelization of women. It includes the criminalization of LGBT+. It includes the persecution of other religions, of other ministries of the same religion. It includes preserving commercial monopolies. Culture includes the preservation of sociopolitical hierarchies and dynastic power.
What I meant is rather that some societies mainly are separated by language, interests and culture. And I did not mean ethnic nationalism, it is absurd thing. And I was not saying local culture should have a legal privilege. Also there is no such thing as presistent culture and language, new languages appear, older disappear. Cultures merge and emerge, but when we are talking about having state without any kinda local dominant culture and societal rules that everyone just grew with, it is unsustainable and unrealistic to happen, because people really often just don’t want to live in foreign countries, people really like living among people they some common things like history, language or relatives. I did not mean that immigration being big factor yet you cant ignore it as well, because eventually it does influence the culture a lot. My message was critique of the liberal idea of multi-cultural state, where there is dominance of local culture(s). Why im against of this idea is because it destroys the pluralism of different cultures meaning destroys diversity of mindsets, that is actually a important thing for humanity in terms of progress. Also what you pointed out is the consequence of religious influence on the cultures. Christianity and any other abrahamic religions actually caused lots of censorship, and added useless complexities into many european and southern cultures, including contributing a lot to the gender inequality. Not to say that that’s the only reason, the patriarchy started much sooner than the rise of monoteism and abrahamic religions , but lots of thing we see as chattelization, misoginy etc. originates from religious doctrines. Im not against transformation of societies into more tolerant, genderly equal, hierarchless societies(India reference?). It is just that multi-cultural heaven is not happening (if the multi-culture means state without any majority culture(s))
In the US today, the culture war is over the genocide of immigrants and LGBT+ and the ultimately exclusion of everyone who is not MAGA and white Christian nationalist. It is about the genocide of everyone not part of the movement in the name of white supremacy. And ultimately MAGA will start cutting into its own. The fascists always do.
I have no idea about US. Im from eastern Europe. I dont even exactly know what culture war is :/ .
Give me diversity, equity and inclusion. Give me pluralistic liberal democracy that values human rights over property rights, that values rule of law. In that environment, the cultures will sort themselves out, and blend into regional variations unique to the area. We don’t need moral guardians trying to tell society what it should be.
I actually agree with it. but also *direct democracy, and *socialism . But also I think nation can decide itself whether they want to integrate the migrants or give autonomy. For example in Estonia we have lots of russians from USSR , who migrated because there were much better living conditions than in RSFSR, and i used to live in russian neighborhoods and even ghettos. And integrating russian schools into estonian was actually one of the best things in terms of integrating them, and making children learn estonian on a near-native level. This helped decline the segregation and isolation of russians from estonian society. . But at the same time we have a great minority called Võro and Seto, who are endangered languages-cultures. They need absolutely opposite approach, they need more autonomy and deserve state-funding for võro-seto education, translation of books, programs etc. This is kinda thing I mean when I say “a nation can impose rules on how their culture relates to others.”
And, then we can have Chicago-style pizza and New-York-style pizza. We can have Methodism, Catholicism, Sunni Islam, Hindi, and Atheism in the same city. (And hundreds of other faiths, spiritual dispositions and identity communities.) We can allow people to explore sexual and gender identity on their own terms, and find there’s even a letter for them in the alphabet. We can have an economy that isn’t run by only a dozen conglomerate corporations selling us shoddy goods for fixed prices. Rather we can regulate the economy to serve the people, with robust competition and state-sponsored science. We can have a society that is shaped by the will of the people, rather than the personal preferences of a handful of oligarchs.
Based? Except im against building new religious building or helping preserve religions, because they harmed humanity a lot. Im not against theistic views though, the theory that there might be some creature that made everything we see, can totally exist. It is not scientifically provable, but it doesn’t force people to hate themselves for being humans in a doctrine manner
No, culture has lost the plot, and no culture should be privileged in a society over any other. Whenever we allow it, xenophobia dominates, and genocide follows. I generally agree with this. You probably just have different US-centered perspective
5 days“We can have a society shaped by the will of the people rather than a handful of oligarchs”
We can(?), but we don’t and won’t. It’s like you and I live in a different world, I don’t have any idea where what you describe exists or when it existed.
Youre describing an American ideal that I’ve never seen. We’ve been xenophobic from 1776 onward. It’s like you have the generic G-rated version of America down, but not anything resembling the real America that I’ve lived in.
MLK for example; he is held to high esteem in USA today, but he accomplished little compared to, say, The Black Panthers, who armed themselves with shotguns and followed police on patrol. THAT is why the civil rights movement progressed. This is the will of the people in action. Every right we’ve gained has been in spite of our political system since at least the 1950s.
Any counter examples would be appreciated. But this is the America that I am from, this is what works
https://www.pushblack.us/news/60s-panthers-policed-police-legacy-continues-today
- 7 days
I can’t speak to Europe, but contrasting the milquetoast euphemism “American racial tensions” against a picture of Hitler seems to be going really easy on the United States.
- 7 days
The point is to whitewash America’s racism, it’s okay because the Europeans also are a bit racist. Don’t try to compare how similar or different it is, that would destroy their take.
- BeMoreCareful@lemmy.worldEnglish7 days
Idk, ask a European about Muslims and all of a sudden I’m talking to my grandparents.
Read the Koran, trust
or, listen to some Imams from today. Pick any Islamic State Imam and listen to them. It won’t take long
(they even speak English you can find their mosque videos on Youtube, pick one)
- 7 days
As a European, this is very true. Anti-romani sentiment is very widespread and often overlooked when talking about xenophobia.
- boonhet@lemmy.zipBanned from community5 days
Idk, it more or less disappeared around here once they started allowing their children to go to school and get jobs once they grow up.
Turns out people care more about crime than skin color most of the time. I literally couldn’t tell you if there are any Romani living near me anymore because nobody has placed a curse on me after demanding money for a fortune telling I didn’t ask for and I haven’t heard of massive theft sprees in over a decade.
- BlindPenguin@piefed.socialEnglish5 days
Integration is usually a two-way street. They wouldn’t have cooperated if the local authorities wouldn’t have done their best to earn their trust, considering all the shit that kept happening in some countries until the 90s and early 00s. So whatever your country is, they probably had some better ideas than e.g. Slovakia .
Another European, I encounter very little anti Romani sentiments in my daily life. There are travelers here and there are prejudices, but active hate is much more directed at refugees.
Generally their music is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the general opinion.
- 7 days
Generally their music is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the general opinion.
imagine saying that right after claiming there is little anti-romani racism
- Shayeta@feddit.orgEnglish5 days
Yeah, because being upset that someone is blasting music until 4AM EVERY DAY is racist.
