• Kate-ay@lemmy.world
    3 months

    Maybe I just haven’t seen it used by transphobes, but I don’t see what’s wrong with male socialized. The first time I heard it I thought it described how being raised male and peer pressured into acting male has fucked me up.

    • isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
      3 months

      Seriously. I was in fact male socialized. Maybe I didn’t take to it as well as I would have if I wasn’t trans or neurodivergent, but I can’t deny I was male socialized. I don’t see that as some permanent Mark of Cain upon my soul. But I was absolutely male socialized.

      • Ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        3 months

        I don’t see that as some permanent Mark of Cain upon my soul.

        The bigots do. It’s literally how they use the term, and why they deliberately erase any nuance from discussions on the subject, and it’s also why you should be careful to not do the same

          • Ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone
            3 months

            The bigots use the language to conflate trans women and cis men, to suggest that they’re really the same. They use that language to shape the understanding of people who don’t know any better. And those people absolutely impact your life, because it’s those people voting for transphobia to “keep women safe” because they see you and I as being just as dangerous as cis men, because language like that shapes their understanding.

  • BonkTheAnnoyed@piefed.blahaj.zoneEnglish
    3 months

    “Socialized male” is one of the key tools in deploying transmisogyny specifically against trans women.

    transphobic examples

    Oh, you’re angry? That’s because at root, you’re really a man. Sorry, fem-card revoked for 30 days.

    You dress masculine-ish because it’s more comfortable? That’s because you were grown up as a man and you really are one at root.

    Hey, you’re wearing too much makeup and those costume jewelry look like a cartoon of a woman. That’s because you’re really a man and you were raised as one.

    And on and on and on. It’s crap. Just walk away from it. Transmisogyny is just one form of gaslighting.

    • prenatal_confusion@feddit.org
      3 months

      You can of course use it as a tool to attack trans women. But that isn’t all it is, no? Reading other replies here there seems to be quite a few people that regard them self trans women and male socialized. Reasoning is clearly stated in those comments.

      I am a cis male and very interested in learning what you and other people that are against the idea of male socialized as a term think and why. It really isn’t gas lighting or trying to steal your time or patronizing. I want to learn how you arrived at those conclusions and maybe even how some arrived at the opposite end of them.

      • apotheotic (she/her)@beehaw.orgEnglish
        3 months

        Important to consider is that many transgender people have big time internalized transphobia. I struggled with it a lot. You (might) go through years, decades, of denying who you are to yourself, hating the aspects of yourself that dont conform to the general idea of the gender you were assigned at birth, and that doesn’t just disappear when you realise and start transitioning.

        I’m not saying every trans person in this thread who describes themselves as “male socialized” is doing so because of internalised transphobia, I’m just suggesting it is worth bearing in mind.

        • isleepinahammock@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
          3 months

          I mean, unless you were raised by hippy parents who raised you androgynous from birth, if you are a trans woman, you experienced male socialization. All that means is people treated you like a male. It doesn’t mean anything beyond that. Socialization refers to things external to you.

          I think there’s a degree of internalized transphobia in rejecting such a clear and straight forward concept. I get not wanting to acknowledge our pasts, but it is internally transphobic to deny one’s own trans experiences.

          There’s nothing shameful about having been socialized male.

          • apotheotic (she/her)@beehaw.orgEnglish
            3 months

            Ew. I have nothing more to say to you if you’re gonna start asserting things about me. Disengaging from this conversation and I hope you will too.

              • apotheotic (she/her)@beehaw.orgEnglish
                3 months

                You directly accused me of internalised transphobia. I mentioned that internalized transphobia may be a factor in some people’s attachment to the concept. Disengage.

      • Ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        3 months

        Your relationship with that socialisation was very different to mine. We both experienced similar pressures and expectations, and we both received similar privileges based on the way people perceived us, but our lived experience of that was very different.

        An analogy is a closeted gay man that has to marry a woman and have kids due to social pressure. He receives many of the privileges of being straight, but it comes at the cost of himself. Calling that straight privilege erases that cost to him, and the price he had to pay by faking a role that wasn’t his.

        Nuance is important, and some privileges are real. But being forced to be perceived as someone that you aren’t is not a privilege, and that shouldn’t be ignored.

        • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
          3 months

          I’ll also add, I internalized the messages for girls while being punished for failing to meet the standards for boys. It’s why I say I was socialized transfeminine.

          And my socialization post transition has involved its own unique brutality