Is the Bayonetta series misogynist?

loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml · 2 days

This could make me look stupid or bad or both but I want to get my thoughts in order and get it out of the way.

I played Bayonetta 2 two months ago. To be honest I think the game is a bit overrated. The metacritic score is something like 80% but it was a 7/10 for me. The combat is good at first but becomes repetitive. They try to spice things up with level design but it falls short. The premise has potential but the way the story is told is not engaging plus the voice acting is a bit campy.

What I was thinking about is what to make of a man creating this setting where the women all look like supermodel caricatures and have high sex appeal in not just looks but also personality and mannerism. It feels like male gaze to me. But there is also the other side to consider. That of slut shaming. So just that the female characters look mythically beautiful is not by itself a cause of concern. But I don’t know enough about the surrounding context (game made in Japan, directed by a man, if there were women substantially involved in the pipelie) to form an opinion.

Personally I think this turmoil in my soul would be laid to rest if in the next DMC game Nero becomes tastefully nude when using the devil bringer.

Edit: I think the answer is similar to that of the question of whether LotR is racist or not. Like it’s not exactly and explicitly racist. But there is an element of it in its basis.

demeritum@lemmygrad.ml · 5 hours

Well the series is heavily advertising Bayonetta‘s body as an object of desire and the camera (and certain battle moves) do act as conduits to leer. However, Bayonetta still has a strong queer fanbase, so there is more to the Bayonetta series than just crude sexualization.

La Dame d'Azur@lemmygrad.ml · 2 hours

Having a queer fanbase doesn’t mean it’s not misogynistic.

Drag is predominantly gay men putting on a show for predominantly gay men, yet it’s still blackface for women.

demeritum@lemmygrad.ml · 3 minutes

Look I don’t want to start something but you are walking towards a rhetoric very close to the claim that trans women are mocking cis women by transitioning into looks of “exaggerated feminine traits”.

Now, I don’t accuse you of anything that you obviously didn’t say, but I have seen enough friends start on that claim and come outside someone not aligned with values compatible with Marxism.

LeninsLinen@lemmygrad.ml · 12 hours

If you have to ask it is either probably misogynist or teeters close enough to questionable territory to raise an eyebrow.

That said, video games are art produced within the inescapable social context of it’s authors. Patriarchy is a part of that context and influences the portrayal of women in art and media. If you like media that’s problematic in that way, it’s because you live in a society where sexism is normalised and seeps into every facet of existence. This includes otherwise good or even just innocuous art. Unfortunately, consumers have false consciousness and get really defencive if you say these things as if it were a personal attack.

big_spoon@lemmygrad.ml · 14 hours

this is an interesting question, i’ll answer based in the original game for ps3 that i played:

in the story and characterization, i’m not so sure, i mean: cereza usually is kinda confident with her sexuality doing pretty basic sex jokes (because she’s a bad girl surrounded by demons and criminals), but she’s not a nympho, and given that she usually rejects the advances of the bald guy and the young lad who always tries to put his hands on her, she’s not created as a usual cute girl who gets with the male character as his future wife or smth

in the visual part: maybe there’s more subtle misogyny because she’s designed to be visually atractive for the customer to buy (i mean, imagine a classic middle-aged witch with long black dress without features as main character or a hex maniac lookalike from pokemon, rather than a girl with tight dress and gun-heels in the game cover)

Nero becomes tastefully nude when using the devil bringer

i think that would probably be more likely happening to dante

loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml · 13 hours

I chose Nero for this because superficially his devil bringer is similar to how Bayonetta summons those large demons etc. So when Nero’s devil bringer becomes a giant hand or something like that he could become naked.

Aria@lemmygrad.ml · 13 hours

Is horny-posting misogynist? Bayonetta is so overtly sexual and goofy that seeing it as anything other than the creators wanking is silly. Nobody reads it as normal, so at worst it’s normalising its aesthetics and sensibilities in porn. It’s not fair to compare it to DMC, because DMC does present itself as normal*.

Then the question goes back to if horny-posting is misogynist, if the context which allows a horny-post to become a huge multi-year hundred-person endeavour and have that be a viable product is misogynist. If the acceptance and normalisation of having the porn-woman in Smash Brothers is misogynist, etc. Personally I think it’s okay. Though probably if they had made the same product for women it wouldn’t have worked. Contrast it with something like Chou Aniki where the sexualisation can’t be played straight and have the product be viable. Though the culture has changed since Bayonetta came out. Baldur’s Gate 3 is even more heavily marketed as a sexy sex game, and their poster-boy is a boy.

[1] DMC is still goofy, but it’s presented as cool+. ‘We overdid it to the point of absurdity’, rather than being anything orthogonal to “cool”.

The metacritic score is something like 80% but it was a 7/10 for me.

Right, but that’s very close to the average opinion you quoted too.

loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml · 13 hours

the average opinion you quoted

Sorry but which opinion?

Aria@lemmygrad.ml · 13 hours

80%. You liking it 70% is consistent with the average (metacritic aggregate) being 80%. It’s ± 10%, you’re basically fully aligned with the reviewers.

loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml · 12 hours

I made a mistake. It’s 91% on metacritic for the Wii U version.

RedLink@lemmygrad.ml · 1 day

The character designer is a woman 島崎麻里 Mari Shimazaki. However women are not immune to performing misogyny. She drew heavy inspiration from successful female action character designs at the time. It was also her job to work with the director on the final vision of Bayonetta.

While sure she can be empowering for people she ultimately is heavily influenced by misogyny. The empowerment she provides is barely distinguishable from any other Woman in gaming with high sex appeal and unapologetic to it. Examples of this trope in western and japanese are; Laura Croft, Many DC and Marvel characters like; Catwoman, Black widow, Poison Ivy, Panty and stocking, and Harleyquinn etc.

In terms of “Badass female lead” That is a trope that is very very common in both western and japanese media; Xena, Ripley, Ryuko Matoi, Kujo jolyne, Buffy, Katniss, Sara O’conner, Balsa, Most woman characters in DC and Marvel comic books, Kill bill bride, Korra, etc

Ghost in the shell can count for either depending on the version you’re reading/watching. In any case Bayonetta is not new or groundbreaking in having a confident powerful female lead who is also sexy and open about sexuality. It’s kinda a trope. It empowers women’s sexuality, which while important, is usually the only part of a woman that is deemed “acceptable” to be confident in, and even then only to an extant. Honestly there’s many contradictions in misogyny its quite interesting. In any case, anyone can find elements that are empowering in nearly any character. Much like your edit its like asking if the LotR is racist.

Soviet Snake@lemmygrad.ml · 2 days

i think there is certainly a matter of misogyny but also it’s kind of a trope in otaku culture. artists are way more open when it comes to their sexual desires if you will. and i don’t think it’s something necessarily male either, many female or other gendered people create their own kinds of sexual fantasies in art. women may like gay porn instead, for example, so genders have bias and such. i think there are many ways to look at it and many are valid.

micnd90 [he/him,any]@hexbear.net · 2 days

I’m a big Bayonetta fan, but of course I’m also a straight guy so take this with a grain of salt.

Bayonetta’s main character designer is a woman (Mari Shimazaki). You can still read her blogpost and thoughts on the design process here - I think people will learn a lot

https://www.platinumgames.com/official-blog/article/1278

I personally think that Bayonetta as a character is empowering. More than anything, they want a “female badass” who is ultra-confident (even in her nudity and sexuality). That is reflected in the voice acting and character design. However, YMMV, there are definitely some sexualized aspect of her character, but in my opinion this is not coming out of malice/misogyny from the devs. I think the series overall is a net positive, and she’s a welcome addition to the pantheon of larger than life video game characters.

WhatWouldKarlDo@lemmygrad.ml · 2 days

I love Bayonetta. It feels empowering to me.

loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml · 2 days

That’s fair.

Orcinus@lemmygrad.ml · 2 days

The games have different directors. Bayonetta 1 was directed by Hideki Kamiya so I’d have a lot more faith in its combat system.

robot_dog_with_gun [they/them]@hexbear.net · 2 days

there was bayonetta discourse for several years when the game was new. i’m not sure how you’d find it these days a bunch of those sites are gone or borked their archives.

loathsome dongeater@lemmygrad.ml · 2 days

Which sites if you don’t mind me asking?

robot_dog_with_gun [they/them]@hexbear.net · 2 days

i don’t remember names, i’d see articles now and then from games studies academics and the more media studies-y journalists. some of them have a paywall site now that i can’t remember either. not remap, but folks those guys are friends with.